M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

[ghug]

Then what do you believe happened?

It's not a matter of what I "believe happened". Your facts are wrong, and it's a bit concerning to me that you'd be this lazy at KILO. Go back and read, and then let's talk.

So I screwed up my exact reasoning (because I interpreted Chaqa's vote movement because rdr was there), but that doesn't change Chaqa still looks scummy for his vote movement at the time even with that.

Chaqa looks like he presented very weak cases and was willing to settle on HB or JBH. In fact, he put more effort into justifying a vote on JBH, yet moved to HB finally at the end of day. It seemed opportunistic and wrought with the vibe of 'soft bus and bail' that we've seen Chaqa do with the likes of kgray several times.

Are my facts still wrong or do you just not agree, which is it now?

I still think JBH is town, and I don't think Chaqa expressing hesitancy about his Hamilton vote because rd was on it is really that weird for him (the key difference between your initial reading and the truth is that rd's vote didn't ultimately influence Chaqa's). I'm giving Chaqa serious consideration today, but the lazy groupthink we saw when the phase started has me a bit sketched out.

[Johnny Big Horse]

We just got to remember, that 3 of us are mafia and 5 are town. When we look at the voting... majority vote does not mean preponderance of evidence.

[damo666]

My current guess is

1 Chaqa EMC braincel

2 Chaqa EMC ghug

3 Chaqa braincel ghug

[worcej]

Let us examine the possible Chaqa JBH pairings, its implications for scum gun distribution and any problems arising.

Firstly we know townChaqa scumJBH is impossible since their was only 1 shot n3. There would have been no reason for scum to hold a shot nights 1 or 2 so therefore no reason to not for for the win N3.

Now let's examine the opposite, scumChaqa town JBH. This implies a scum gun distribution of N1 N2 N2. Not unreasonable. However, why on earth would they shoot JBH rather than Jamie n2? They would have had to be prepared for JBH to die and flip town. This would expose 2 scum guns n2 so in order to give room for Chaqa to be town they must have planned for a false n3 rose claim. As well as giving Chaqa some cover the claimant becomes quasi clear. The fact that JBH was rose saved rather than killed gives no reason to stop the planned N3 rose claim. Surely with this pairing Jamie would have been shot n2 with a N3 rose claim. I contend that the JBH shot makes absolutely no sense in this scenario and I reject it.

THEREFORE CHAQA AND JBH ARE BOTH THE SAME ALIGNMENT

Now let us consider both town. This would imply a gun distribution of n2 n2 n3. Again the shot on JBH n2 makes no sense. It means that by using your n3 gun you townclear Chaqa. Why would you not simply kill Chaqa n2 allowing yourselves a N3 kill? I therefore dismiss town town.

So, Chaqa and JBH are BOTH SCUM!!

Let's examine this. It implies a scum gun distribution of N1 n2 n3 which I purport is the most natural. It explains the shot on JBH (there wasn't one) and they can't use their n3 gun because killing someone else makes them both look guilty.
I think after N1 Chaqa realised it was highly likely that there were no town guns (quite likely since picking a rose os kinda auto) so therefore had to manufacture a shot in order to give him room to be town.

It is in Chaqa's maverick nature to claim gun as scum. I think he assumed there would be at least 1 town gunner and his plan backfired. JBH would be a naturally compliant partner as a noob and leaving Jamie alive after n2 explains JBH's attack on him, probably under instruction from Chaqa. His attack on Chaqa himself was probably also sanctioned by Chaqa in the n2 chat.

Now who is third man? I can't see ghug putting up with such play, red would rail against it but give Chaqa the right to do it, worcej might go for it, EMC would roll over and run with it and brain would of course absolutely love it. If Brian was gun n3 this might explain the day 1 panic. My likelihood order for third man is:
braincel
EMC
Worcej
Rdr
Ghug


If there is a gaping hole in my reasoning I am sure someone will tell me.

This is how I see the rest if the game panning out.

D4 kill Chaqa 5-2
N4 NK Damo 4-2
D5 kill JBH 4-1
N5 NK ghug 3-1

rdr worcej EMC braincel left.

Good luck to the 3 town in that 4.

Using the stated GM information from each phase, we know the following:

1. "More than 1" shot was fired N1.
2. "Multiple shots" were fired on N2.
3. "A single shot" was fired N3.

I'm going to assume competency in this regard and feel that scum never withheld a NK so far in this game, meaning that we know for sure that at least 2 guns were used.

Reviewing the deaths, we have this:

1. N1 = 0 and 2 claimed 'shot but lived'
2. N2 = 2 and 1 claimed 'shot but lived'
3. N3 = 1 kill, no other shot - meaning most likely just a NK

So far, there have been 3 claimed people to have been shot:

1. Snowy @ N1 - who was NK'ed later (N2)
2. Jamie @ N1 - who was NK'ed later (N3)
3. JBH @ N2 - Still alive D4

At this point, we have only one claimed gun user (Chaqa). Assuming Chaqa told the truth and did use the gun at Jamie, I do not see a world where JBH and Chaqa are on the same team because it requires incredibly bad decision making by a scum team.

Town!Chaqa and Town!JBH would imply that scum only used 2 guns and either missed an order to submit (unlikely) or a scum player picked a rose. In regards to a scum player picking a rose, none of the players left alive now would make that fear based choice. I don't think any of scum player possibility would think they were likely to get shot by a town player at any point in the game and would've instead gone with a gun in order to speed the game up to Milo/Kilo.

Town!Chaqa and Scum!JBH would make sense only if scum picked 2 roses (hella unlikely) or missed a gun order (also hella unlikely) and are trying to actively shade Chaqa to get a miskill. This would require a coordinated effort over multiple day phases to pull off and, again, requires the incredibly bad decision by a scum team to have taken a rose.

Scum!Chaqa and Scum!JBH makes the least amount of sense because JBH's claim of a gunshot only brings more shade onto himself than anything. It also doesn't clear him in any way, so why draw the attention? To cause some chaos, maybe, but it only hurts the team because it drags Chaqa into the mud too. Best method would've been to not fake claim a shot and just go down the rabbit hole of 'scum must've picked roses because they thought the town would go Rambo on us' instead of this.

Finally, Scum!Chaqa and Town!JBH makes the most sense to me. With this, the only option to make this work is that scum picked 3 guns, which is the optimum play for any scum team to have executed. It's entirely in Chaqa's scum game to openly claim the gun and play it off as town, which worked for quite awhile, but as the facts begin to pile up I cannot see how he is town. Scum!Chaqa knew Jamie was town and safely shot there over any other option, and even his reasoning for Jamie as a choice on N1 was never well explained or based on any reads/reasoning. Finally on D3, I think Chaqa moved off JBH and onto HB because JBH is the easier miskill when it counts.

Chaqa's claimed gun fits the narrative of a 3 gun scum team. His play has been scummy and disconnected, granted for RL reasons, but when he is here it's still not very invested. I feel pretty safe on Chaqa dying right now and we'll get our first scum flip of the game.

[worcej]

It's not a matter of what I "believe happened". Your facts are wrong, and it's a bit concerning to me that you'd be this lazy at KILO. Go back and read, and then let's talk.

So I screwed up my exact reasoning (because I interpreted Chaqa's vote movement because rdr was there), but that doesn't change Chaqa still looks scummy for his vote movement at the time even with that.

Chaqa looks like he presented very weak cases and was willing to settle on HB or JBH. In fact, he put more effort into justifying a vote on JBH, yet moved to HB finally at the end of day. It seemed opportunistic and wrought with the vibe of 'soft bus and bail' that we've seen Chaqa do with the likes of kgray several times.

Are my facts still wrong or do you just not agree, which is it now?

I still think JBH is town, and I don't think Chaqa expressing hesitancy about his Hamilton vote because rd was on it is really that weird for him (the key difference between your initial reading and the truth is that rd's vote didn't ultimately influence Chaqa's). I'm giving Chaqa serious consideration today, but the lazy groupthink we saw when the phase started has me a bit sketched out.

I also agree, I think JBH is town because of both his play and the facts surrounding him. Read my wall post.

[worcej]

My current guess is

1 Chaqa EMC braincel

2 Chaqa EMC ghug

3 Chaqa braincel ghug

So you only have one guess?

[Johnny Big Horse]

@Damo and @Worcez,

You both agree on Chaqa. If one of you is reasoning wrong, and one of you is scum... oh... boy...

I trust Worcez most. I will vote with him.

[Johnny Big Horse]

##VOTE Chaqa

[Chaqa]

Why would I ever claim a gun as scum immediately like I did.

If anyone else had guns they could have figured out I had to be scum, or that there were X number of guns in Y players, much like Eden was doing when he thought brain and ghug had guns as well.

You're all falling exactly into the pitfall scum wants, and one that xorxes even warned about before he died:

Final thoughts:

I wanted to do a full reread of worcej but didn't make it. My best guess is still Chaqa-JBH-worcej, however. And celaph is flying way under the radar.

I don't think there will be two shots tonight.

If there are three shots then Chaqa and I will be dead, and someone else will be dead and we lost, or someone survived and becomes more or less a clear. I don't think this scenario is very likely.

Much more likely, I'm the only death. This won't tell us much, because if scum still had a gun their best strategy was not to use it. Milo is better than kilo for them at this stage, otherwise they give us free info. So this could mean they had no guns left or they just didn't use their last gun.

Either scum took a rose or they withheld a shot specifically to near-guarantee I would be miskilled today to seal their win.

[damo666]

Let us examine the possible Chaqa JBH pairings, its implications for scum gun distribution and any problems arising.

Firstly we know townChaqa scumJBH is impossible since their was only 1 shot n3. There would have been no reason for scum to hold a shot nights 1 or 2 so therefore no reason to not for for the win N3.

Now let's examine the opposite, scumChaqa town JBH. This implies a scum gun distribution of N1 N2 N2. Not unreasonable. However, why on earth would they shoot JBH rather than Jamie n2? They would have had to be prepared for JBH to die and flip town. This would expose 2 scum guns n2 so in order to give room for Chaqa to be town they must have planned for a false n3 rose claim. As well as giving Chaqa some cover the claimant becomes quasi clear. The fact that JBH was rose saved rather than killed gives no reason to stop the planned N3 rose claim. Surely with this pairing Jamie would have been shot n2 with a N3 rose claim. I contend that the JBH shot makes absolutely no sense in this scenario and I reject it.

THEREFORE CHAQA AND JBH ARE BOTH THE SAME ALIGNMENT

Now let us consider both town. This would imply a gun distribution of n2 n2 n3. Again the shot on JBH n2 makes no sense. It means that by using your n3 gun you townclear Chaqa. Why would you not simply kill Chaqa n2 allowing yourselves a N3 kill? I therefore dismiss town town.

So, Chaqa and JBH are BOTH SCUM!!

Let's examine this. It implies a scum gun distribution of N1 n2 n3 which I purport is the most natural. It explains the shot on JBH (there wasn't one) and they can't use their n3 gun because killing someone else makes them both look guilty.
I think after N1 Chaqa realised it was highly likely that there were no town guns (quite likely since picking a rose os kinda auto) so therefore had to manufacture a shot in order to give him room to be town.

It is in Chaqa's maverick nature to claim gun as scum. I think he assumed there would be at least 1 town gunner and his plan backfired. JBH would be a naturally compliant partner as a noob and leaving Jamie alive after n2 explains JBH's attack on him, probably under instruction from Chaqa. His attack on Chaqa himself was probably also sanctioned by Chaqa in the n2 chat.

Now who is third man? I can't see ghug putting up with such play, red would rail against it but give Chaqa the right to do it, worcej might go for it, EMC would roll over and run with it and brain would of course absolutely love it. If Brian was gun n3 this might explain the day 1 panic. My likelihood order for third man is:
braincel
EMC
Worcej
Rdr
Ghug


If there is a gaping hole in my reasoning I am sure someone will tell me.

This is how I see the rest if the game panning out.

D4 kill Chaqa 5-2
N4 NK Damo 4-2
D5 kill JBH 4-1
N5 NK ghug 3-1

rdr worcej EMC braincel left.

Good luck to the 3 town in that 4.

Using the stated GM information from each phase, we know the following:

1. "More than 1" shot was fired N1.
2. "Multiple shots" were fired on N2.
3. "A single shot" was fired N3.

I'm going to assume competency in this regard and feel that scum never withheld a NK so far in this game, meaning that we know for sure that at least 2 guns were used.

Reviewing the deaths, we have this:

1. N1 = 0 and 2 claimed 'shot but lived'
2. N2 = 2 and 1 claimed 'shot but lived'
3. N3 = 1 kill, no other shot - meaning most likely just a NK

So far, there have been 3 claimed people to have been shot:

1. Snowy @ N1 - who was NK'ed later (N2)
2. Jamie @ N1 - who was NK'ed later (N3)
3. JBH @ N2 - Still alive D4

At this point, we have only one claimed gun user (Chaqa). Assuming Chaqa told the truth and did use the gun at Jamie, I do not see a world where JBH and Chaqa are on the same team because it requires incredibly bad decision making by a scum team.

Town!Chaqa and Town!JBH would imply that scum only used 2 guns and either missed an order to submit (unlikely) or a scum player picked a rose. In regards to a scum player picking a rose, none of the players left alive now would make that fear based choice. I don't think any of scum player possibility would think they were likely to get shot by a town player at any point in the game and would've instead gone with a gun in order to speed the game up to Milo/Kilo.

Town!Chaqa and Scum!JBH would make sense only if scum picked 2 roses (hella unlikely) or missed a gun order (also hella unlikely) and are trying to actively shade Chaqa to get a miskill. This would require a coordinated effort over multiple day phases to pull off and, again, requires the incredibly bad decision by a scum team to have taken a rose.

Scum!Chaqa and Scum!JBH makes the least amount of sense because JBH's claim of a gunshot only brings more shade onto himself than anything. It also doesn't clear him in any way, so why draw the attention? To cause some chaos, maybe, but it only hurts the team because it drags Chaqa into the mud too. Best method would've been to not fake claim a shot and just go down the rabbit hole of 'scum must've picked roses because they thought the town would go Rambo on us' instead of this.

Finally, Scum!Chaqa and Town!JBH makes the most sense to me. With this, the only option to make this work is that scum picked 3 guns, which is the optimum play for any scum team to have executed. It's entirely in Chaqa's scum game to openly claim the gun and play it off as town, which worked for quite awhile, but as the facts begin to pile up I cannot see how he is town. Scum!Chaqa knew Jamie was town and safely shot there over any other option, and even his reasoning for Jamie as a choice on N1 was never well explained or based on any reads/reasoning. Finally on D3, I think Chaqa moved off JBH and onto HB because JBH is the easier miskill when it counts.

Chaqa's claimed gun fits the narrative of a 3 gun scum team. His play has been scummy and disconnected, granted for RL reasons, but when he is here it's still not very invested. I feel pretty safe on Chaqa dying right now and we'll get our first scum flip of the game.

see highlighted in TownTown

@worcej you are missing the case where scum deliberately withhold the gun on N3 as Xorxes pointed out. Consider this scum team {ghug, rdr, emc}; could they deliberately have left Jamie and Chaqa alive after n2 to create confusion? It's possible. Then on n3 they can't kill anyone but Chaqa because that would townclear Chaqa and if they kill Chaqa they townclear JBH. So a case can be made for holding a gun on n3 HOWEVER given the team above I think they would be happy to take the risk and kill Chaqa and go into today 4-3 down with a townclear JBH confident they could engineer a mk of you. I thik the same argument applies whatever group of 3 you have from {ghug, rdr, emc, worcej, braincel, me} there would always be an obvious mk to engineer. A possible exception might be {rdr, worcej, emc} but I rule this out because I don't think worcej goes away with a vote parked on emc, I rule out a worcej/emc scumpairing.

Bottom line holding a gun n3 can be given some credence (Xorxes gave it) but I just can't see any scum team given the personnel that would get in that position.

Conclusion: Chaqa is scum and JBH is town.

[damo666]

@Chaqa if you are town tell me the precise scumteam that would have taken the precise actions scum would have to have taken to be consistent with a Chaqa town alignment and the known facts.

Here's your chance to prove yourself.

[damo666]

My current guess is

1 Chaqa EMC braincel

2 Chaqa EMC ghug

3 Chaqa braincel ghug

So you only have one guess?

[Chaqa]

@Chaqa if you are town tell me the precise scumteam that would have taken the precise actions scum would have to have taken to be consistent with a Chaqa town alignment and the known facts.

Here's your chance to prove yourself.

Well, I think for a play like that to happen, you really only need one person to propose it and convince the others.

Ghug, Brain, and EMC would all find a play like that tantalizing, but celaph replacing brain means less likely

I could see worcej or (maybe) Johnny being convinced by it - I don't have as much familiarity with worcej's playstyle as scum, but he has done some wacky things as town before. Johnny is an enigma as it's his first game.

You and Rivera are a little less certain. I haven't recently been scum with Rivera, so I'm not sure how open he is to outside the box plays, but I think you would probably not be down for something like this unless the other two members of your team were.

So I would say there's many scumteams that would do this. I think the most likely people to propose it are (in order):

EMC - He loves outside the box plays
Ghug - He loves killing me and also big brain plays
brain!celaph - It depends on how much brain's planning was involved before he left

And people who would go along with it (in order of likelihood):
Worcej
Rivera
Damo
Johnny

So maybe like one o these:
Ghug, EMC, Worcej
EMC, worcej, Rivera
EMC, celaph, worcej
Ghug, brain, worcej

etc.

I would say it's pretty unlikely either you or Johnny are scum at all at this point. Johnny especially is pretty impossible to be scum now that I see mafia held a shot.

[ghug]

Let us examine the possible Chaqa JBH pairings, its implications for scum gun distribution and any problems arising.

Firstly we know townChaqa scumJBH is impossible since their was only 1 shot n3. There would have been no reason for scum to hold a shot nights 1 or 2 so therefore no reason to not for for the win N3.

Now let's examine the opposite, scumChaqa town JBH. This implies a scum gun distribution of N1 N2 N2. Not unreasonable. However, why on earth would they shoot JBH rather than Jamie n2? They would have had to be prepared for JBH to die and flip town. This would expose 2 scum guns n2 so in order to give room for Chaqa to be town they must have planned for a false n3 rose claim. As well as giving Chaqa some cover the claimant becomes quasi clear. The fact that JBH was rose saved rather than killed gives no reason to stop the planned N3 rose claim. Surely with this pairing Jamie would have been shot n2 with a N3 rose claim. I contend that the JBH shot makes absolutely no sense in this scenario and I reject it.

THEREFORE CHAQA AND JBH ARE BOTH THE SAME ALIGNMENT

Now let us consider both town. This would imply a gun distribution of n2 n2 n3. Again the shot on JBH n2 makes no sense. It means that by using your n3 gun you townclear Chaqa. Why would you not simply kill Chaqa n2 allowing yourselves a N3 kill? I therefore dismiss town town.

So, Chaqa and JBH are BOTH SCUM!!

Let's examine this. It implies a scum gun distribution of N1 n2 n3 which I purport is the most natural. It explains the shot on JBH (there wasn't one) and they can't use their n3 gun because killing someone else makes them both look guilty.
I think after N1 Chaqa realised it was highly likely that there were no town guns (quite likely since picking a rose os kinda auto) so therefore had to manufacture a shot in order to give him room to be town.

It is in Chaqa's maverick nature to claim gun as scum. I think he assumed there would be at least 1 town gunner and his plan backfired. JBH would be a naturally compliant partner as a noob and leaving Jamie alive after n2 explains JBH's attack on him, probably under instruction from Chaqa. His attack on Chaqa himself was probably also sanctioned by Chaqa in the n2 chat.

Now who is third man? I can't see ghug putting up with such play, red would rail against it but give Chaqa the right to do it, worcej might go for it, EMC would roll over and run with it and brain would of course absolutely love it. If Brian was gun n3 this might explain the day 1 panic. My likelihood order for third man is:
braincel
EMC
Worcej
Rdr
Ghug


If there is a gaping hole in my reasoning I am sure someone will tell me.

This is how I see the rest if the game panning out.

D4 kill Chaqa 5-2
N4 NK Damo 4-2
D5 kill JBH 4-1
N5 NK ghug 3-1

rdr worcej EMC braincel left.

Good luck to the 3 town in that 4.

Using the stated GM information from each phase, we know the following:

1. "More than 1" shot was fired N1.
2. "Multiple shots" were fired on N2.
3. "A single shot" was fired N3.

I'm going to assume competency in this regard and feel that scum never withheld a NK so far in this game, meaning that we know for sure that at least 2 guns were used.

Reviewing the deaths, we have this:

1. N1 = 0 and 2 claimed 'shot but lived'
2. N2 = 2 and 1 claimed 'shot but lived'
3. N3 = 1 kill, no other shot - meaning most likely just a NK

So far, there have been 3 claimed people to have been shot:

1. Snowy @ N1 - who was NK'ed later (N2)
2. Jamie @ N1 - who was NK'ed later (N3)
3. JBH @ N2 - Still alive D4

At this point, we have only one claimed gun user (Chaqa). Assuming Chaqa told the truth and did use the gun at Jamie, I do not see a world where JBH and Chaqa are on the same team because it requires incredibly bad decision making by a scum team.

Town!Chaqa and Town!JBH would imply that scum only used 2 guns and either missed an order to submit (unlikely) or a scum player picked a rose. In regards to a scum player picking a rose, none of the players left alive now would make that fear based choice. I don't think any of scum player possibility would think they were likely to get shot by a town player at any point in the game and would've instead gone with a gun in order to speed the game up to Milo/Kilo.

Town!Chaqa and Scum!JBH would make sense only if scum picked 2 roses (hella unlikely) or missed a gun order (also hella unlikely) and are trying to actively shade Chaqa to get a miskill. This would require a coordinated effort over multiple day phases to pull off and, again, requires the incredibly bad decision by a scum team to have taken a rose.

Scum!Chaqa and Scum!JBH makes the least amount of sense because JBH's claim of a gunshot only brings more shade onto himself than anything. It also doesn't clear him in any way, so why draw the attention? To cause some chaos, maybe, but it only hurts the team because it drags Chaqa into the mud too. Best method would've been to not fake claim a shot and just go down the rabbit hole of 'scum must've picked roses because they thought the town would go Rambo on us' instead of this.

Finally, Scum!Chaqa and Town!JBH makes the most sense to me. With this, the only option to make this work is that scum picked 3 guns, which is the optimum play for any scum team to have executed. It's entirely in Chaqa's scum game to openly claim the gun and play it off as town, which worked for quite awhile, but as the facts begin to pile up I cannot see how he is town. Scum!Chaqa knew Jamie was town and safely shot there over any other option, and even his reasoning for Jamie as a choice on N1 was never well explained or based on any reads/reasoning. Finally on D3, I think Chaqa moved off JBH and onto HB because JBH is the easier miskill when it counts.

Chaqa's claimed gun fits the narrative of a 3 gun scum team. His play has been scummy and disconnected, granted for RL reasons, but when he is here it's still not very invested. I feel pretty safe on Chaqa dying right now and we'll get our first scum flip of the game.

see highlighted in TownTown

@worcej you are missing the case where scum deliberately withhold the gun on N3 as Xorxes pointed out. Consider this scum team {ghug, rdr, emc}; could they deliberately have left Jamie and Chaqa alive after n2 to create confusion? It's possible. Then on n3 they can't kill anyone but Chaqa because that would townclear Chaqa and if they kill Chaqa they townclear JBH. So a case can be made for holding a gun on n3 HOWEVER given the team above I think they would be happy to take the risk and kill Chaqa and go into today 4-3 down with a townclear JBH confident they could engineer a mk of you. I thik the same argument applies whatever group of 3 you have from {ghug, rdr, emc, worcej, braincel, me} there would always be an obvious mk to engineer. A possible exception might be {rdr, worcej, emc} but I rule this out because I don't think worcej goes away with a vote parked on emc, I rule out a worcej/emc scumpairing.

Bottom line holding a gun n3 can be given some credence (Xorxes gave it) but I just can't see any scum team given the personnel that would get in that position.

Conclusion: Chaqa is scum and JBH is town.

There's no way in hell I kill Chaqa last night if he's town and I'm scum, FWIW.

[dargorygel]

VOTE COUNT 4.02
Chaqa: (4) worcej, damo666, rdrivera2005, Johnny Big Horse
worcej (1) Chaqa
rdrivera2005 (1) ghug

[ghug]

@Chaqa if you are town tell me the precise scumteam that would have taken the precise actions scum would have to have taken to be consistent with a Chaqa town alignment and the known facts.

Here's your chance to prove yourself.

Well, I think for a play like that to happen, you really only need one person to propose it and convince the others.

Ghug, Brain, and EMC would all find a play like that tantalizing, but celaph replacing brain means less likely

I could see worcej or (maybe) Johnny being convinced by it - I don't have as much familiarity with worcej's playstyle as scum, but he has done some wacky things as town before. Johnny is an enigma as it's his first game.

You and Rivera are a little less certain. I haven't recently been scum with Rivera, so I'm not sure how open he is to outside the box plays, but I think you would probably not be down for something like this unless the other two members of your team were.

So I would say there's many scumteams that would do this. I think the most likely people to propose it are (in order):

EMC - He loves outside the box plays
Ghug - He loves killing me and also big brain plays
brain!celaph - It depends on how much brain's planning was involved before he left

And people who would go along with it (in order of likelihood):
Worcej
Rivera
Damo
Johnny

So maybe like one o these:
Ghug, EMC, Worcej
EMC, worcej, Rivera
EMC, celaph, worcej
Ghug, brain, worcej

etc.

I would say it's pretty unlikely either you or Johnny are scum at all at this point. Johnny especially is pretty impossible to be scum now that I see mafia held a shot.

What is the risky scum action you're suggesting?

[Chaqa]

@Chaqa if you are town tell me the precise scumteam that would have taken the precise actions scum would have to have taken to be consistent with a Chaqa town alignment and the known facts.

Here's your chance to prove yourself.

-- snipped --

What is the risky scum action you're suggesting?

Holding a shot last night to frame me.

Damo asked me to try to explain who precisely would do that, but now that I think about it, you're right that it isn't that risky at all. So I'm not sure what damo needs to be convinced of.

Makes me second guess clearing him of it a little

[damo666]

It's not so much risky as wasteful. It just shows how shooting JBH rather than Chaqa n2 is silly in that scenario.

[damo666]

There's no way in hell I kill Chaqa last night if he's town and I'm scum, FWIW.

OK but would you as scum have killed JBH rather than Chaqa or Jamie n2?

[ghug]

-- snipped --

What is the risky scum action you're suggesting?

Holding a shot last night to frame me.

Damo asked me to try to explain who precisely would do that, but now that I think about it, you're right that it isn't that risky at all. So I'm not sure what damo needs to be convinced of.

Makes me second guess clearing him of it a little

I read it as him asking about the whole series of night moves. You and Jamie were both widely townread and known to be exposed N2. Who's shooting JBH there?