MAFIA 67 OFFICIAL GAME THREAD —//—//— CURSE OF THE AZURE BONDS [hidden]

[TheMadMonarch]

Nah, this is bad advice. We say who the scumbo is at EoN. Unless you're EMC who decided to say that he thinks I'm the scumbo already which let's scum pick kills around that.

This is the nail in your coffin.

What about it do you dislike? What do you make of the fact that rdr agreed?

You said we should accuse at EON, you did not. EMC sussed only you, and was an otherwise unlikely target; he died. Also This post just looks bad.

EMC DIED?!?!?!?!?

Time to do some rereading, but I'm leaning rdr here.

[TheMadMonarch]

I'm not fully sure, but you are so far just defending yourself, not attacking rdr.

[celaph]

Celaph, rdr already thinks I'm town, that makes 3 of us.

A town case on me means nothing, what have you got for scum on rdr?

The easy answer is that you're townier as to why rdr is scum, though I'm not 100% convinced which is why I want the argument to take place regardless.
If you want a list of scummy things that rdr has done, I've started compiling one below. I would love to hear both your and rdr's arguments for me being scum.

He defended Damo early D1 and D2.
He townread Perp though didn't try to defend him and left his vote on an inconsequential wagon the whole time.
He had really wonky argument saying that scum would bus Damo and ghug D1 which doesn't make sense given that scum has very little desire to bus 2 of their 3 teammates before there was substantial sus thrown on them.
He lacked uncertainty around the Vecna kill. He was killing Vecna because he was still alive. Read his messages and ask yourself why he thinks that Vecna is scum. His argument was basically that town Vecna would have died by then. That's not a good reason to be certain on Vecna as his behavior suggests that he was.

[TheMadMonarch]

Since I am townread by both of you, I will likely be the one to cast the deciding vote.

From that, it is likely that the kill will be decided well before EOD (since I am not asleep, but actually otherwise occupied with a morning activity at that time).

Best of luck to the town on of you.

[celaph]

I'm not fully sure, but you are so far just defending yourself, not attacking rdr.

Yeah, because me not dying is necessary to get scum here.

[celaph]

You said we should accuse at EON, you did not. EMC sussed only you, and was an otherwise unlikely target; he died. Also This post just looks bad.

What is the scum motivation for not making that post? Just a mixture of laziness and lost track of time. I very likely kill EMC there, hence my surprise. The only thing that was making me hesitate was the fact that Vecna was sniper when I expected him to be jailer.

[rdrivera2005]

EMC DIED?!?!?!?!?

Time to do some rereading, but I'm leaning rdr here.

Why I don't feel surprised....

Why are you not surprised? You listed him as the scum in your EoN post. He was also a notable wagon two days ago and generally the most scumread person with the only person really defending him being me. What mafia would want to kill him?

I was meaning I am not surprised with you pushing me. It's the only way the emc death makes sense. If it was Macca, they just kill me and emc will never vote them. With you killing emc you have a chance to push me and Macca will be deciding the game.

[rdrivera2005]

Celaph, rdr already thinks I'm town, that makes 3 of us.

A town case on me means nothing, what have you got for scum on rdr?

The easy answer is that you're townier as to why rdr is scum, though I'm not 100% convinced which is why I want the argument to take place regardless.
If you want a list of scummy things that rdr has done, I've started compiling one below. I would love to hear both your and rdr's arguments for me being scum.

He defended Damo early D1 and D2.
He townread Perp though didn't try to defend him and left his vote on an inconsequential wagon the whole time.
He had really wonky argument saying that scum would bus Damo and ghug D1 which doesn't make sense given that scum has very little desire to bus 2 of their 3 teammates before there was substantial sus thrown on them.
He lacked uncertainty around the Vecna kill. He was killing Vecna because he was still alive. Read his messages and ask yourself why he thinks that Vecna is scum. His argument was basically that town Vecna would have died by then. That's not a good reason to be certain on Vecna as his behavior suggests that he was.

I still didn't have time to re-read you, but I will answer this points, even considering you are fabricating a lot of things.

I didn't defend Damo D1 and D2 as you are saying. I didn't saw the signaling Worcej saw at start but I never said I townread Damo and would have certainly voted him against Chaqa or Perp if I was around closer to EON. D2 I even voted him but get back when someone pointed he could self save. The right town play isn't to kill an un-cced claim that will solve one way or another and you should know this.

I am pretty sure the last scum bussed Damo hard. What's the point on both Mafia defending the weakest partner? Ghug got caught defending him so I expect the other to detach from them. Show me a game were the whole scum team defended a teammate? It's much more logical to have one busser and all last games showed this.

I was voting Vecna because he was the most sus of the remaining players and also because he was still alive. I even call the character thing as last time he did this (Ceasar impersonation) he was also scum.

Also, do you really think I would have killed emc? He was townreading me so badly I thought he was the scum buddying me.

[celaph]

Why I don't feel surprised....

Why are you not surprised? You listed him as the scum in your EoN post. He was also a notable wagon two days ago and generally the most scumread person with the only person really defending him being me. What mafia would want to kill him?

I was meaning I am not surprised with you pushing me. It's the only way the emc death makes sense. If it was Macca, they just kill me and emc will never vote them. With you killing emc you have a chance to push me and Macca will be deciding the game.

In that world why don't I just kill you and try to push out EMC? That makes way more sense.

[celaph]

I still didn't have time to re-read you, but I will answer this points, even considering you are fabricating a lot of things.

Sweet, now I'm more confident in it being you over Macca.

I didn't defend Damo D1 and D2 as you are saying. I didn't saw the signaling Worcej saw at start but I never said I townread Damo

You can absolutely defend someone without townreading them so I'm not sure why you draw that equivalency. You argued that the Worcej's justification to sus Damo was bad. That draws pressure off damo, defending him, without you saying anything about your view of him.

and would have certainly voted him against Chaqa or Perp if I was around closer to EON.

This is obviously easy to say now with little to support it. Why didn't you vote Damo D1?

@Macca, RDR's last message that day was 2:34 before EoD1. 20 minutes earlier, he said that he was going to probably miss the EoD. He knew he wasn't coming back. The wagons at the time were Perp (4), lfischl (3), Damo (2), EMC (2), Food (1), Celaph (1), Chaqa (1), PE (1) with rdr making up the lone member of the PE wagon. For all intents and purposes, a wasted vote. Of the 4 wagons with 2 votes, he townread Perp and didn't mention either EMC or lfischl. His only read on Damo is that "Damo is off".

There is no effort here to solve the game. He's saying that the leading wagon is town so that when it flips he looks good, but he makes no attempt to even consider EMC or lfischl as alternatives. He was perfectly happy to waste his vote on a vanity PE wagon, while the top wagon by 2 votes was a townread of his. Town doesn't do that.

D2 I even voted him but get back when someone pointed he could self save. The right town play isn't to kill an un-cced claim that will solve one way or another and you should know this.

I think our D2 approaches to Damo make for a good comparison because on the whole were rather similar. I 100% agree that in a vacuum, killing un-cced PR is a bad idea. I said so myself. We also both seemed to sus the way that Damo was acting. In that sense, our play was very similar.

That said, we do not play in a vacuum and I think that there are a number of factors that look better on me than you.

1. I don't have your history of staying off Damo's wagon (see above).
2. I disagree that you should never DK un-CC'd PR. I just think you need substantial evidence. In this case, that is HR's kill. I didn't understand the HR kill argument at first as evidenced here, here, and here. When I understood it, I voted Damo.
3. I think I pushed ghug, harder than you did even accounting for the fact that you voted and I didn't. N1 you instinctively drew the connection between M65 and M67 and yet qualified your N1 sus of ghug by saying "If Damos is lying" and only voted ghug after he was the leading wagon. If you were honestly connecting the events, scum ghug is an obvious target, not something that needs qualifying. I say that with confidence because it's exactly the sus that I made both when Chaqa's wagon was happening and at the start of D2. In your vote you said that someone had already made the comparison between ghug M65 and M67, yeah, that was me.

I am pretty sure the last scum bussed Damo hard. What's the point on both Mafia defending the weakest partner? Ghug got caught defending him so I expect the other to detach from them. Show me a game were the whole scum team defended a teammate? It's much more logical to have one busser and all last games showed this.

I think the last game when kgray and Chaqa defended me D2 is a solid example of what you're asking for. No one was bussing me there.

My problem with your point here is that it lacks refinement. You put no qualifier on when you expect the bussing to have started, while I believe that the bussing would have started when Damo and ghug looked caught. I think the problem with your lack of qualifier is highlighted by your sus of EMC.

@Macca, EMC was the second vote on Damo well before there was substantial sus on Damo. He had far less reason to distance himself from Damo+ghug because of that lack of sus and because ghug hadn't yet defended Damo. Yet, rdr put sus on him nonetheless. If this was an honest attempt to find scum, rdr would have accounted for the fact that EMC didn't yet have reason to distance as his sus suggested. That is rdr looking for a miskill.

That's why I emphasized the way you prefaced rdr's ghug sus N1 before really sussing him D2. He only went into bus mode after ghug looked caught. Rdr fits this model perfectly as someone who defended Damo early and bussed both of them after they were caught.

I was voting Vecna because he was the most sus of the remaining players and also because he was still alive. I even call the character thing as last time he did this (Ceasar impersonation) he was also scum.

Why was he the most sus of the remaining players? You had just given a reason for why EMC and I should be sus and then you went to totally ignore it and target Vecna.

Yes, you did list his impersonation thing once, but even you didn't really give it much stock. When you first voted Vecna you said that "I don't have any big scum tell from him other then the fact he is still alive." You also later even commented on parrot Vecna saying "Vecna D1 parroting is annoying and hard to get some actual reads, it could be a scum tactic to fly under the radar or just trying to avoid an early kill like he said later." And later you told Vecna that your vote was "most based on exclusion." If you were really sussing Vecna for impersonation, why doesn't it come back up? To that last quote, why are you voting him for exclusion over EMC and I who you had sussed for our votes on Damo.

@Macca, two points about rdr's Vecna push highlight that it is a bus. The first is the one I've highlighted above. He knew that it was the tactically correct move to push Vecna and so was voting him even though his reasons are inconsistent as I've highlighted. The second is that his read didn't adapt as Vecna's behavior did. D5 when we were both giving Vecna more town points for the way he was acting, RDR's perspective didn't change. He votes and susses didn't adapt with the game because he was making them fit an outside agenda.

Also, do you really think I would have killed emc? He was townreading me so badly I thought he was the scum buddying me.

This is why I was surprised that EMC died. I thought that all 3 of y'all would kill you or Macca.

[celaph]

@Macca, to call your attention to two other things that I've come across in reading.

The first is that PE looks a lot like a fear kill posting the following a couple hours before he was NK'd.

rivera and Vecna are the ones coming to mind for me. I'm trying not to do the obnoxious reductionist "you haven't been nk'd yet so you're mafia" bit, but as a pair of players who often get picked off early when they're town, I'm underwhelmed by what they've decided to do with their extended lease on life.

The second is that in hindsight rdr was leading us the exact opposite direction with his sniper susses.

The Sniper is even harder, I was betting on a newbie, considering the way Damo was signalling but yesterday's shot was pretty well timed, so not sure anymore.

[TheMadMonarch]

As a debater, I bloody loved reading those posts. It has earned you an ##UNVOTE for now.

I've taken some of the things you've said, and had a couple thoughts. This is not a decision I make lightly.

What I want to know now, is what caused Vecna to target Gimix? How was he sure Gimix was actually newb town? A miss there would have cost him the game (with him a guaranteed out the next day). Where do you think the signaling was?

[rdrivera2005]

As a debater, I bloody loved reading those posts. It has earned you an ##UNVOTE for now.

I've taken some of the things you've said, and had a couple thoughts. This is not a decision I make lightly.

What I want to know now, is what caused Vecna to target Gimix? How was he sure Gimix was actually newb town? A miss there would have cost him the game (with him a guaranteed out the next day). Where do you think the signaling was?

I think Celaph had made a great work bringing a really huge wall of text that is really hard to answer to. If you are a debater you problably can see he is trying to make this day to be about me defending myself and in a debate the more you got in the defensive the more you look guilty. He just made a narrative that fit his agenda on getting me sus. I will adress some of the points, that I think I didn´t before, but I prefer to invest my time re-reading.

So, if you have the time please do yourself a re-read of both me and him and if you have any question please adress me.

[rdrivera2005]

@Macca, to call your attention to two other things that I've come across in reading.

The first is that PE looks a lot like a fear kill posting the following a couple hours before he was NK'd.

rivera and Vecna are the ones coming to mind for me. I'm trying not to do the obnoxious reductionist "you haven't been nk'd yet so you're mafia" bit, but as a pair of players who often get picked off early when they're town, I'm underwhelmed by what they've decided to do with their extended lease on life.

The second is that in hindsight rdr was leading us the exact opposite direction with his sniper susses.

The Sniper is even harder, I was betting on a newbie, considering the way Damo was signalling but yesterday's shot was pretty well timed, so not sure anymore.

I feel really interesting how you are bringing a dead town read from N3 that point me as scum to say PE was a fearkill and you just forgot about the two last NKs that were both townreading me and scumreading you at some level. If you aplly basic logical if makes a lot more sense to fearkill closer to milo then at N3.

[rdrivera2005]

I still didn't have time to re-read you, but I will answer this points, even considering you are fabricating a lot of things.

Sweet, now I'm more confident in it being you over Macca.

I didn't defend Damo D1 and D2 as you are saying. I didn't saw the signaling Worcej saw at start but I never said I townread Damo

You can absolutely defend someone without townreading them so I'm not sure why you draw that equivalency. You argued that the Worcej's justification to sus Damo was bad. That draws pressure off damo, defending him, without you saying anything about your view of him.

and would have certainly voted him against Chaqa or Perp if I was around closer to EON.

This is obviously easy to say now with little to support it. Why didn't you vote Damo D1?

@Macca, RDR's last message that day was 2:34 before EoD1. 20 minutes earlier, he said that he was going to probably miss the EoD. He knew he wasn't coming back. The wagons at the time were Perp (4), lfischl (3), Damo (2), EMC (2), Food (1), Celaph (1), Chaqa (1), PE (1) with rdr making up the lone member of the PE wagon. For all intents and purposes, a wasted vote. Of the 4 wagons with 2 votes, he townread Perp and didn't mention either EMC or lfischl. His only read on Damo is that "Damo is off".

There is no effort here to solve the game. He's saying that the leading wagon is town so that when it flips he looks good, but he makes no attempt to even consider EMC or lfischl as alternatives. He was perfectly happy to waste his vote on a vanity PE wagon, while the top wagon by 2 votes was a townread of his. Town doesn't do that.

D2 I even voted him but get back when someone pointed he could self save. The right town play isn't to kill an un-cced claim that will solve one way or another and you should know this.

I think our D2 approaches to Damo make for a good comparison because on the whole were rather similar. I 100% agree that in a vacuum, killing un-cced PR is a bad idea. I said so myself. We also both seemed to sus the way that Damo was acting. In that sense, our play was very similar.

That said, we do not play in a vacuum and I think that there are a number of factors that look better on me than you.

1. I don't have your history of staying off Damo's wagon (see above).
2. I disagree that you should never DK un-CC'd PR. I just think you need substantial evidence. In this case, that is HR's kill. I didn't understand the HR kill argument at first as evidenced here, here, and here. When I understood it, I voted Damo.
3. I think I pushed ghug, harder than you did even accounting for the fact that you voted and I didn't. N1 you instinctively drew the connection between M65 and M67 and yet qualified your N1 sus of ghug by saying "If Damos is lying" and only voted ghug after he was the leading wagon. If you were honestly connecting the events, scum ghug is an obvious target, not something that needs qualifying. I say that with confidence because it's exactly the sus that I made both when Chaqa's wagon was happening and at the start of D2. In your vote you said that someone had already made the comparison between ghug M65 and M67, yeah, that was me.

I am pretty sure the last scum bussed Damo hard. What's the point on both Mafia defending the weakest partner? Ghug got caught defending him so I expect the other to detach from them. Show me a game were the whole scum team defended a teammate? It's much more logical to have one busser and all last games showed this.

I think the last game when kgray and Chaqa defended me D2 is a solid example of what you're asking for. No one was bussing me there.

My problem with your point here is that it lacks refinement. You put no qualifier on when you expect the bussing to have started, while I believe that the bussing would have started when Damo and ghug looked caught. I think the problem with your lack of qualifier is highlighted by your sus of EMC.

@Macca, EMC was the second vote on Damo well before there was substantial sus on Damo. He had far less reason to distance himself from Damo+ghug because of that lack of sus and because ghug hadn't yet defended Damo. Yet, rdr put sus on him nonetheless. If this was an honest attempt to find scum, rdr would have accounted for the fact that EMC didn't yet have reason to distance as his sus suggested. That is rdr looking for a miskill.

That's why I emphasized the way you prefaced rdr's ghug sus N1 before really sussing him D2. He only went into bus mode after ghug looked caught. Rdr fits this model perfectly as someone who defended Damo early and bussed both of them after they were caught.

I was voting Vecna because he was the most sus of the remaining players and also because he was still alive. I even call the character thing as last time he did this (Ceasar impersonation) he was also scum.

Why was he the most sus of the remaining players? You had just given a reason for why EMC and I should be sus and then you went to totally ignore it and target Vecna.

Yes, you did list his impersonation thing once, but even you didn't really give it much stock. When you first voted Vecna you said that "I don't have any big scum tell from him other then the fact he is still alive." You also later even commented on parrot Vecna saying "Vecna D1 parroting is annoying and hard to get some actual reads, it could be a scum tactic to fly under the radar or just trying to avoid an early kill like he said later." And later you told Vecna that your vote was "most based on exclusion." If you were really sussing Vecna for impersonation, why doesn't it come back up? To that last quote, why are you voting him for exclusion over EMC and I who you had sussed for our votes on Damo.

@Macca, two points about rdr's Vecna push highlight that it is a bus. The first is the one I've highlighted above. He knew that it was the tactically correct move to push Vecna and so was voting him even though his reasons are inconsistent as I've highlighted. The second is that his read didn't adapt as Vecna's behavior did. D5 when we were both giving Vecna more town points for the way he was acting, RDR's perspective didn't change. He votes and susses didn't adapt with the game because he was making them fit an outside agenda.

Also, do you really think I would have killed emc? He was townreading me so badly I thought he was the scum buddying me.

This is why I was surprised that EMC died. I thought that all 3 of y'all would kill you or Macca.

You are again distorting things. I voted Vecna because he wasn´t NK and because I have more town vibes from the other players remaining and it was clear in my vote.

I interacted with Vecna and he started to shade me telling I was keeping my options open, which isn´t true. I guess this is him trying to identify his partner as the best scum play is to keep the options open to try to get a misskill. The way he was flip flopping around trying to get a new target solidified my scum read on him.

You think bussing a goon that was caught signalling doesn´t make sense, but bussing the Sniper that wasn´t an obvious DK and that will make 1 scum against 6 town makes sense?

Also, you openly defended Vecna at that start of the day:

I think Vecna's had some weird things this game, but I agree that his limited reads are a bad reason to vote for him. It's not like I've actually done much worthy of a read since D2.

So, I have a question for you. Who do you think is capable of killing Demon over you?

I'm weirded out by the assumption here that Vecna was in some way the obvious kill, when I don't see why he was. Demon at least had people townreading him rather vocally, Vecna.

Also, Vecna was voting you at day start, but at some point he just changed his mind and started to look for other targets, emc, me and gimix to see if any of them gets traction. I am pretty sure he identified you as his last partner. Vecna knew he won´t last to end game, so he just want to get a misskill to make his partner chances better and he achieved it.

[TheMadMonarch]

As a debater, I bloody loved reading those posts. It has earned you an ##UNVOTE for now.

I've taken some of the things you've said, and had a couple thoughts. This is not a decision I make lightly.

What I want to know now, is what caused Vecna to target Gimix? How was he sure Gimix was actually newb town? A miss there would have cost him the game (with him a guaranteed out the next day). Where do you think the signaling was?

I think Celaph had made a great work bringing a really huge wall of text that is really hard to answer to. If you are a debater you problably can see he is trying to make this day to be about me defending myself and in a debate the more you got in the defensive the more you look guilty. He just made a narrative that fit his agenda on getting me sus. I will adress some of the points, that I think I didn´t before, but I prefer to invest my time re-reading.

So, if you have the time please do yourself a re-read of both me and him and if you have any question please adress me.

No. He listed arguments with cited reason. It was well structured and easy to follow. You're attacking his argument in the wrong way, and it's not helping your case.

[rdrivera2005]

I started the re-reading and this quote is interesting. Signaling to Sniper?

Considering Damo was also signaling it could be risky, but I don´t really know why scum want to signal to Vecna. I see a reason to signal to a newbie to avoid him shooting a scum, but Vecna know well how to play this role.

Why you did this specific post Celaph?

##VOTE Chaqa

1. I am mafia
2. Chaqa and I have determined, after many months of suspicious coincidences, that we are different personalities within one person suffering from split personality disorder
3. Only one person gets a role PM
4. Therefore, we have the same role PM
5. Therefore, he's mafia

Two down two to go boys.

n
iteresting...

##VOTE Vecna

As Dragonbait, I know that Vecna's the Joat. Why do you want to kill him?

[rdrivera2005]

As a debater, I bloody loved reading those posts. It has earned you an ##UNVOTE for now.

I've taken some of the things you've said, and had a couple thoughts. This is not a decision I make lightly.

What I want to know now, is what caused Vecna to target Gimix? How was he sure Gimix was actually newb town? A miss there would have cost him the game (with him a guaranteed out the next day). Where do you think the signaling was?

I think Celaph had made a great work bringing a really huge wall of text that is really hard to answer to. If you are a debater you problably can see he is trying to make this day to be about me defending myself and in a debate the more you got in the defensive the more you look guilty. He just made a narrative that fit his agenda on getting me sus. I will adress some of the points, that I think I didn´t before, but I prefer to invest my time re-reading.

So, if you have the time please do yourself a re-read of both me and him and if you have any question please adress me.

No. He listed arguments with cited reason. It was well structured and easy to follow. You're attacking his argument in the wrong way, and it's not helping your case.

Well, I am adressing his arguments and also re-reading. I hope you can see the difference from someone trying to win a debate by fitting a narrative like he was doing and someone that is actually telling the truth. He was pushing exactly things that can´t be answered, like me being away at D1 EOD and Eden N3 scum read on me. I feel like he has this already prepared to convince you to change your mind and vote me, and unfortunetely it seems to be working.

[rdrivera2005]

@Celaph

You were townreading Ghug and added him to your not kill list.

People we probably shouldn't kill today:
celaph
worcej
ghug
demon
Macca
rdr

Here, you voted lfishcl to be the counter wagon to Perp and not Damo (both have 1 vote).

Perp is a good wagon. I'll ##vote lfischl for a second wagon.

And then you voted Damo supposedly to tie the voting, without any actual reasoning closer to EOD. You also made a 360 change on mind on your Ghug read. What made you change your mind here? This is exactly what I expect from a scum that see that goon Damo will go sooner or later and with the other scum alreading making an effort to start a town wagon (Chaqa).

##vote Damo

My soul is with you Bona. I'll get more cohesive thoughts in later, but I think ghug looks pretty scummy at the moment.

why does my son want you to vote for damo, celaph?

I was thinking when you voted. I thought I was tying it.

[rdrivera2005]

Another quote I find interesting, trying to detach Ghug and Damo alignment.

I guess since were openly theorizing about it now.....

This has also been my main gripe with how people approach this day.

Either Damo is JOAT and Ghug is quite probably the cop for the way he saved him D1 and how he's been approaching it.....

Or Ghug indeed just tried to save his scumbuddy Damo D1 and HR had to eat a fat bullet because he was on to him. Lot more extra incentive to kill HR as well because he appeared to know something about Damo in that scenario.

People no longer being interested in Damo suddenly wanting to push Ghug feels really odd to me

Why can't I just be VT who believes his claim and thinks it's bad process to kill him even if you don't?

Or similarly why wouldn't scum ghug defend town Damo to get towncred later?

Overall I think Damo's rather sus, but I by no means want to kill an unCC'd PR at this stage. The risk reward is not worth it. That said, I don't think that ghug is tied to Damo in alignment/PR status simply by his defense of Damo. Ghug will look terrible if Damo flips scum, but I don't think it's a good idea to flip Damo yet so we can wait on it.

But after saying the killing and unCCd PR is a good play you just got convinced and decided to vote him after all. And with another hedgy statement about Ghug.

##vote Damo

I want to investigate this idea that ghug targeting Chaqa is NAI. I'm not sold that it is, but I'm not going to vote on it yet.