MAFIA 66: The Battle for Olympus - Game Thread [hidden]

[rdrivera2005]

I know scum don’t always scummy and town don’t always act townie. There’d be no game otherwise.

The problem for me is, we have so little information that I’m going to have to build a POE largely based on who has seemed scummy across the game. There are very few connections to be drawn because of the nature of the votes we’ve had.

I am not at all saying I’ve solved the game. I am open to revelation. But you’re not exactly presenting new arguments for me to chew over - you’re just telling me I could be wrong, which I agree with.

I’m still going to make the best decision I can, even knowing I could be wrong. I think it’s vastly more wrong to vote for celaph, kgray or damo today than it is to vote for you, Macca or yavu.

You're saying that you know this, but you don't act like it. You refuse to consider the idea of a deep threat - "It's vastly more wrong to vote for celaph, kgray or damo". If you actually think that you could be wrong, you need to consider more possibilities than dismissing it out of hand: "oh it's possible but not likely so i'll ignore it".

How am I not considering those possibilities? I'm saying that it's much more likely that you or Macca or yavu are scum (from my perspective), and we should deal with one of the more likely candidates first to garner more information before trying to figure out if any of the townie-looking folks are actually wolves in sheep's clothing. I'm not dismissing it out of hand at all. I'm saying let's make an easier decision first so we have better information to make the harder decisions. That's just good play in Mafia.

OK, I will also eat my shoe if Food is scum here. If we guess right one or two obvious scum, scumteam will narrow the deep threat with the NKs, so it´s not a good play to search for a deep threat today.

[Chaqa]

Bona didn’t say I was “untownie” and “100% scum” until after my wallposts on him. This seems to confirm your assertions. His shading me is shaky and doesn’t make sense (he is now engaging me as if I am town, if you read how he is responding to me).

Also, saying someone’s scum reads are right or wrong is a truism.

If bona is scum I think Chaqa might be scum with him.

Sure, sure. Caught us.

ScumBona doesn't kill RHK there. You're in a tunfoil

Do you think there was no busser?

I think Kgray is the most likely busser. Then celaph.

Bona is to me the most towny of the voters because he was the deciding vote, and I do not think Bona would do that on Day 1 or at all

[damo666]

At the moment Macca can (and presumably will) move to Bona and Bona can self vote to tie it and whatever town driven last minute switches we make we could still cock it up and there be a tie.

Can we please cnsolidate on Bona or Macca or do a mass switch to Yav.

I'm really nervous of the current situation.

I am not. I think both can be scum and looking how people react to the wagons could be interesting.
Let´s be honest, we are screwed, so playing safe isn´t an option.

I agree both can be scum but 'm still nervous of the tie.

[celaph]

I do not think a defence of Macca needs to be made. I think A CASE AGAINST MACCA NEEDS TO BE MADE.

Everyone is being lazy, unfortunately.

I think their catch-up D3 was exceptionally lackluster and their vote pushes against Darg is rather anti-town. While I agree that this feels like the default vote, I don't think that necessarily makes it a bad vote. I don't see a world where they can survive 4 days so if they're town I feel similarly to rdr and just want it over. Also, your advocating that we won't get much info from killing Macca, but we have no additional info if we kill others now. Lastly, as Chaqa has pointed out, we do get some info from Macca especially if they flip janitor.

Lackluster isn't scummy for Macca (no offense Macca) and Bona also pushed against Darg but in a blatantly scummier way. So why is Macca a better vote?

What do you mean we have no additional info if we kill others now? Either the game ends or we caught another scumbo.

If Macca is scum, what does Macca flipping Janitor or not Janitor even tell us?

I know you were dead last game, but I feel like they played reasonably well as town. Maybe it's just the activity, but I struggle to see Macca as better than null even when trying to read favorably.

Food was arguing that killing Macca doesn't give much info making it a bad town play. I don't think that's a good way to think about things with so few kills left.

Non-janitor gives us little, though janitor helps clarify the positions of the RB'd people like Chaqa and rdr. Though that's weaker than I thought now that I'm saying it aloud.

[damo666]

##vote Yav

This is scummy. Please don´t star t a third wagon now. Having town slipt on three wagons can throw the game to scum.

OK OK

##vote Macca

[celaph]

Who's voting for Bona because Macca is the default wagon...?

To be very clear, I think bona is much scummier than Macca. By far. I think it's much likelier bona is scum, than Macca is. If the decision were solely in my hands, we would KO bona because I think it is more likely a successful play for town.

I know, and I agree. Celaph is indicating that people are only on Bona because Macca is the "default" and that's just wrong.

No, I think they're are plenty of good reasons to be on Bona. I've argued many of them myself. My point was that many of the arguments against Macca are that they're the default vote and I'm not a fan of that as a counter argument.

[kgray]

Bona being a deciding vote on scum doesn't make up for everything else I scumread him for. Scum get towncred for busing all the time. His inexplicable townread of worcej, his lazy, "too-scummy-to-be-scum" vote for Maniac D4, the way he pushed darg and tried to discredit him and then backpaddled like crazy when pressed about it, the way he's constantly refused to answer questions about his reads, that scummy af vote/day thing that he made up, him doing pretty much exactly what Chaqa said his scumtell was... I just can't see town!Bona here and I'm pretty convinced Chaqa is his partner.

[kgray]

At the moment Macca can (and presumably will) move to Bona and Bona can self vote to tie it and whatever town driven last minute switches we make we could still cock it up and there be a tie.

Can we please cnsolidate on Bona or Macca or do a mass switch to Yav.

I'm really nervous of the current situation.

I am not. I think both can be scum and looking how people react to the wagons could be interesting.
Let´s be honest, we are screwed, so playing safe isn´t an option.

I agree both can be scum but 'm still nervous of the tie.

Why? A tie doesn't lose us the game, and if someone last-second ties it, they're basically outed scum.

[kgray]

I think their catch-up D3 was exceptionally lackluster and their vote pushes against Darg is rather anti-town. While I agree that this feels like the default vote, I don't think that necessarily makes it a bad vote. I don't see a world where they can survive 4 days so if they're town I feel similarly to rdr and just want it over. Also, your advocating that we won't get much info from killing Macca, but we have no additional info if we kill others now. Lastly, as Chaqa has pointed out, we do get some info from Macca especially if they flip janitor.

Lackluster isn't scummy for Macca (no offense Macca) and Bona also pushed against Darg but in a blatantly scummier way. So why is Macca a better vote?

What do you mean we have no additional info if we kill others now? Either the game ends or we caught another scumbo.

If Macca is scum, what does Macca flipping Janitor or not Janitor even tell us?

I know you were dead last game, but I feel like they played reasonably well as town. Maybe it's just the activity, but I struggle to see Macca as better than null even when trying to read favorably.

Food was arguing that killing Macca doesn't give much info making it a bad town play. I don't think that's a good way to think about things with so few kills left.

Non-janitor gives us little, though janitor helps clarify the positions of the RB'd people like Chaqa and rdr. Though that's weaker than I thought now that I'm saying it aloud.

No, food was arguing that if we're going to flip Macca eventually anyway we might as well first flip someone we think is scum and who would give us some information to keep solving before scum kill a widely-townread townie.

The janitor has nothing to do with my scumread of Chaqa or my townread of Rivera and I don't think it matters much what role scum flip. It is weak.

Is Macca your strongest scumread then?

[damo666]

I am not. I think both can be scum and looking how people react to the wagons could be interesting.
Let´s be honest, we are screwed, so playing safe isn´t an option.

I agree both can be scum but 'm still nervous of the tie.

Why? A tie doesn't lose us the game, and if someone last-second ties it, they're basically outed scum.

No. Town can last minute switch to avoid a tie and inadvertently cause one.

[celaph]

At the moment Macca can (and presumably will) move to Bona and Bona can self vote to tie it and whatever town driven last minute switches we make we could still cock it up and there be a tie.

Can we please cnsolidate on Bona or Macca or do a mass switch to Yav.

I'm really nervous of the current situation.

I am not. I think both can be scum and looking how people react to the wagons could be interesting.
Let´s be honest, we are screwed, so playing safe isn´t an option.

##vote Bona

I think both wagons are good wagons, but I'm liking the people over here more and more and kgray and rdr are making some decent arguments.

[celaph]

Lackluster isn't scummy for Macca (no offense Macca) and Bona also pushed against Darg but in a blatantly scummier way. So why is Macca a better vote?

What do you mean we have no additional info if we kill others now? Either the game ends or we caught another scumbo.

If Macca is scum, what does Macca flipping Janitor or not Janitor even tell us?

I know you were dead last game, but I feel like they played reasonably well as town. Maybe it's just the activity, but I struggle to see Macca as better than null even when trying to read favorably.

Food was arguing that killing Macca doesn't give much info making it a bad town play. I don't think that's a good way to think about things with so few kills left.

Non-janitor gives us little, though janitor helps clarify the positions of the RB'd people like Chaqa and rdr. Though that's weaker than I thought now that I'm saying it aloud.

No, food was arguing that if we're going to flip Macca eventually anyway we might as well first flip someone we think is scum and who would give us some information to keep solving before scum kill a widely-townread townie.

The janitor has nothing to do with my scumread of Chaqa or my townread of Rivera and I don't think it matters much what role scum flip. It is weak.

Is Macca your strongest scumread then?

It's really close between Macca and Bona. I think that there are more reasons to scumread Bona, but also more reasons to townread him while Macca has a few reasons to scumread and very few to townread.

I was thinking that made Macca the safer play, but rdr's rhetoric convinced me that at this point we kind of have to take some risks.

[damo666]

I HAVE A PROPOSAL TO AVOID A TIE.

At precisely 30 minutes to EOD whoever is in the lead is the kill for the day. If it is a tie at that time the most recent lead wagon is the daykill. Everybody not on the thusly determined daykill must move to the determined daykill or be considered scum.

I do not think any townsperson would disagree with this proposal but if anybody has any objection please explain why.

I furthermore propose we vote on the above proposal. Please indicate below next to your name with either 'Yes' indicating agreement or 'No' indicating disagreement.

Bona
celaph
Chaqa
damo --- Yes
food
Jamie
kgray
Macca
rdr
Yav

[foodcoats]

To be very clear, I think bona is much scummier than Macca. By far. I think it's much likelier bona is scum, than Macca is. If the decision were solely in my hands, we would KO bona because I think it is more likely a successful play for town.

I know, and I agree. Celaph is indicating that people are only on Bona because Macca is the "default" and that's just wrong.

No, I think they're are plenty of good reasons to be on Bona. I've argued many of them myself. My point was that many of the arguments against Macca are that they're the default vote and I'm not a fan of that as a counter argument.

celaph, what in particular makes you think Macca is scum? I see you've switched to voting bona, but I was reviewing your arguments today it seems the main reason you scumread Macca is that you scumread bona and Macca together. Do you independently scumread them, or do they need to be scum together?

[foodcoats]

Sure, sure. Caught us.

ScumBona doesn't kill RHK there. You're in a tunfoil

Do you think there was no busser?

I think Kgray is the most likely busser. Then celaph.

Bona is to me the most towny of the voters because he was the deciding vote, and I do not think Bona would do that on Day 1 or at all

Why do you think that? What makes kgray the most likely busser and celaph the second most likely? Let's put bona to the side here. I want to win, Chaqa, and I think you're town, so I need to understand. kgray's voting at EOD1 looks just as good as bona's. Is there something she's done that makes you think she's scum?

[rdrivera2005]

I agree both can be scum but 'm still nervous of the tie.

Why? A tie doesn't lose us the game, and if someone last-second ties it, they're basically outed scum.

No. Town can last minute switch to avoid a tie and inadvertently cause one.

We can just have an EOD say at 10 minutes before EOD. Then any late change to try to tie the vote will be scum.

[Chaqa]

I HAVE A PROPOSAL TO AVOID A TIE.

At precisely 30 minutes to EOD whoever is in the lead is the kill for the day. If it is a tie at that time the most recent lead wagon is the daykill. Everybody not on the thusly determined daykill must move to the determined daykill or be considered scum.

I do not think any townsperson would disagree with this proposal but if anybody has any objection please explain why.

I furthermore propose we vote on the above proposal. Please indicate below next to your name with either 'Yes' indicating agreement or 'No' indicating disagreement.

Bona
celaph
Chaqa
damo --- Yes
food
Jamie
kgray
Macca
rdr
Yav

I feel like your absolute endless desire to avoid a tie is a bit odd. A tie would be REALLY bad, don't get me wrong, but it wouldn't be an auto-loss. Are you sure this isn't a way for you to ensure a mis-kill? That's my major issue with it.

[Chaqa]

Do you think there was no busser?

I think Kgray is the most likely busser. Then celaph.

Bona is to me the most towny of the voters because he was the deciding vote, and I do not think Bona would do that on Day 1 or at all

Why do you think that? What makes kgray the most likely busser and celaph the second most likely? Let's put bona to the side here. I want to win, Chaqa, and I think you're town, so I need to understand. kgray's voting at EOD1 looks just as good as bona's. Is there something she's done that makes you think she's scum?

Yeah, I explained it in my analysis of the Day 1 wagon earlier in the game. I think being the deciding vote is very player-dependent. Bona wouldn't bus there, so he's town in my book. You and I were around and didn't waiever on the wagon, so I think you're clear (as I know I am).

Kgray was on the wagon and later came back, when her alternative (to vote for Kak) would have tied it. Kgray as scum is, above all else, risk averse (I was on a team with her before, and I know this from experience). She wouldn't risk a tie to save a teammate if it might out her as well.

Celaph, I'm less sure of. It's more that he was on the wagon but seemingly (maybe?) not around (I think I remember seeing him online but I can't be 100% sure). I would look more heavily at him if kgray flips scum, because the two have had a very strong connection all game.

So for me, I want to flip Macca (obv scum), then probably Yavu. After that, I think Kgray would be my next push.

I strongly townread you, Bona, Jamie. Damo and Rivera, there could definitely be scum in there, but I think one at most.

[damo666]

Why? A tie doesn't lose us the game, and if someone last-second ties it, they're basically outed scum.

No. Town can last minute switch to avoid a tie and inadvertently cause one.

We can just have an EOD say at 10 minutes before EOD. Then any late change to try to tie the vote will be scum.

Xpost apparently !

[celaph]

I know, and I agree. Celaph is indicating that people are only on Bona because Macca is the "default" and that's just wrong.

No, I think they're are plenty of good reasons to be on Bona. I've argued many of them myself. My point was that many of the arguments against Macca are that they're the default vote and I'm not a fan of that as a counter argument.

celaph, what in particular makes you think Macca is scum? I see you've switched to voting bona, but I was reviewing your arguments today it seems the main reason you scumread Macca is that you scumread bona and Macca together. Do you independently scumread them, or do they need to be scum together?

As I've mentioned before I think it's likely that they're scum together, but that applies to both of them and thus is not a great reason to vote Macca over Bona so I'll look past it.

Look at something like Macca's D3. Very little there is explicitly scummy, but the signal to noise ratio is dismal. It's like they knew they had to be active, but didn't really have much to contribute.