Mafia 65: Dreamland II [Hidden]

[ghug]

By the way, I want you to explain why you think my push on Brain and Worcej was flat considering I never really pushed them?

That's what's flat. Vecna wanted to give you credit for having good reads. I don't want to give you credit for those reads, because scumreading scum and not pushing it is a thing scum do.

I disagree, I usually bus to the end when I am scum, exactly because of this kind of thinking, but it's all WIFOM.

I also want to understand why you decided to vote Chaqa D1? Do you have ever seen Chaqa play that way as scum? My main reason to scumread Brain, you and Vecna was voting for Chaqa when you all know well his meta. Vecna told he would have changed if he was online at EOD. Brain was scum, what's your excuse?

I wanted to kill jasnah D1. Jamie strongly hinted that he was PR as the jasnah wagon disintegrated, which left Chaqa.

That said, I don't think we should be giving Chaqa a free pass for being shitty. It's not a real loss if we're wrong, and he's proven that he can take advantage of meta perception to coast to the end as scum without behaving pro-town at all.

[ghug]

I encourage Rdrivera and Ghug to move to Maniac.

I'll move whenever you're ready to be done, but I'd like you to at least consider/rebut my rdr case, because I still think he's the better bet.

Hard to rebut a case that is just based on feeling or on "scum usually does this".

There seems to be some sentiment that you've behaved townily, and I see no townish behavior.

[Jamiet99uk]

I encourage Rdrivera and Ghug to move to Maniac.

I'll move whenever you're ready to be done, but I'd like you to at least consider/rebut my rdr case, because I still think he's the better bet.

Your reaction to me voting and scumreading Maniac is really weird since you're also accusing Maniac of throwing the game and I'm pointing out that Maniac's "case" on you appears fake.

[Jamiet99uk]

We still need to agree our target and end before 11pm UK time. I'm not going to shift my vote, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I've stated my reasons.

Note that this did not occur.

[ghug]

I encourage Rdrivera and Ghug to move to Maniac.

I'll move whenever you're ready to be done, but I'd like you to at least consider/rebut my rdr case, because I still think he's the better bet.

Your reaction to me voting and scumreading Maniac is really weird since you're also accusing Maniac of throwing the game and I'm pointing out that Maniac's "case" on you appears fake.

I believe he's behaving suboptimally as town. Your points are compelling, but I believe mine are too.

[Jamiet99uk]

Do not hammer. I will review the Rdrivera case before EoD.

I think Ghug is being weird.

[rdrivera2005]

Do not hammer. I will review the Rdrivera case before EoD.

I think Ghug is being weird.

We can't hammer without you.

And Ghug's case isn't a case. It's just that he didn't townread me. I strongly think you should take another look at Ghug as he is probably the scum here.

[ghug]

Do not hammer. I will review the Rdrivera case before EoD.

I think Ghug is being weird.

We can't hammer without you.

And Ghug's case isn't a case. It's just that he didn't townread me. I strongly think you should take another look at Ghug as he is probably the scum here.

That's a little reductive. Interacting regularly and combatively with brain right up until he went crazy and then not interacting with him at all is suspicious. Constantly listing worcej in the back end of your scumreads and never questioning or discussing him is suspicious. Supporting the Chaqa killing and then turning around and basing all of your scumreads on the belief that no experienced players would have voted Chaqa is suspicious. There's not a gigantic list of reasons for any of us, because the majority of the game has been a mechanic-focused alien hunt, and the two of you have maintained low activity levels. Maintaining a low activity level is suspicious.

Where's your case on me?


Jamie, I'm less confident that Maniac is town than I was last night, but I still think it's rd, and I'm still going to encourage you to consider switching. What's weird about that?

[Jamiet99uk]

Do not hammer. I will review the Rdrivera case before EoD.

I think Ghug is being weird.

We can't hammer without you.

And Ghug's case isn't a case. It's just that he didn't townread me. I strongly think you should take another look at Ghug as he is probably the scum here.

You were very uncertain earlier and could see the possibility of either Ghug or Maniac being scum, to the extent that you were reluctant to place your vote. Now you are suddenly very confident it's Ghug. How did you become so sure?

[rdrivera2005]

Do not hammer. I will review the Rdrivera case before EoD.

I think Ghug is being weird.

We can't hammer without you.

And Ghug's case isn't a case. It's just that he didn't townread me. I strongly think you should take another look at Ghug as he is probably the scum here.

You were very uncertain earlier and could see the possibility of either Ghug or Maniac being scum, to the extent that you were reluctant to place your vote. Now you are suddenly very confident it's Ghug. How did you become so sure?

I really dislike the way he built a non-case on me. I am not so sure and I will vote Maniac if you are really convinced. But I feel more town effort from Maniac then from Ghug re-reading both of them.

[rdrivera2005]

Do not hammer. I will review the Rdrivera case before EoD.

I think Ghug is being weird.

We can't hammer without you.

And Ghug's case isn't a case. It's just that he didn't townread me. I strongly think you should take another look at Ghug as he is probably the scum here.

That's a little reductive. Interacting regularly and combatively with brain right up until he went crazy and then not interacting with him at all is suspicious. Constantly listing worcej in the back end of your scumreads and never questioning or discussing him is suspicious. Supporting the Chaqa killing and then turning around and basing all of your scumreads on the belief that no experienced players would have voted Chaqa is suspicious. There's not a gigantic list of reasons for any of us, because the majority of the game has been a mechanic-focused alien hunt, and the two of you have maintained low activity levels. Maintaining a low activity level is suspicious.

Where's your case on me?


Jamie, I'm less confident that Maniac is town than I was last night, but I still think it's rd, and I'm still going to encourage you to consider switching. What's weird about that?

See, this kind of thing I feel not towny trying to solve but someone tryng to fit the reality into a narrative.
I didn't interacted with Brain after he went berserk because I wasn't around. My last post that day was with 05:43 to EOD and it was easily check on the bot, so you saying I stopped interacting is so forced I can't really think it's a townie effort.

Curiously my last post that day was commenting that you and Maniac jumping out of Thamrick wagon was scummy.

[ghug]

We can't hammer without you.

And Ghug's case isn't a case. It's just that he didn't townread me. I strongly think you should take another look at Ghug as he is probably the scum here.

You were very uncertain earlier and could see the possibility of either Ghug or Maniac being scum, to the extent that you were reluctant to place your vote. Now you are suddenly very confident it's Ghug. How did you become so sure?

I really dislike the way he built a non-case on me. I am not so sure and I will vote Maniac if you are really convinced. But I feel more town effort from Maniac then from Ghug re-reading both of them.

You said when I posted the case that you liked the work but not the conclusions.

[ghug]

We can't hammer without you.

And Ghug's case isn't a case. It's just that he didn't townread me. I strongly think you should take another look at Ghug as he is probably the scum here.

That's a little reductive. Interacting regularly and combatively with brain right up until he went crazy and then not interacting with him at all is suspicious. Constantly listing worcej in the back end of your scumreads and never questioning or discussing him is suspicious. Supporting the Chaqa killing and then turning around and basing all of your scumreads on the belief that no experienced players would have voted Chaqa is suspicious. There's not a gigantic list of reasons for any of us, because the majority of the game has been a mechanic-focused alien hunt, and the two of you have maintained low activity levels. Maintaining a low activity level is suspicious.

Where's your case on me?


Jamie, I'm less confident that Maniac is town than I was last night, but I still think it's rd, and I'm still going to encourage you to consider switching. What's weird about that?

See, this kind of thing I feel not towny trying to solve but someone tryng to fit the reality into a narrative.
I didn't interacted with Brain after he went berserk because I wasn't around. My last post that day was with 05:43 to EOD and it was easily check on the bot, so you saying I stopped interacting is so forced I can't really think it's a townie effort.

Curiously my last post that day was commenting that you and Maniac jumping out of Thamrick wagon was scummy.

brain started going crazy fourish hours into the day. He got his first vote, from Vecna, at 40:31. All but three of your fourteen posts that day came after that. You mentioned him four times that day. One was to say he wasn't obvtowning, one was to "confess" that the people on his wagon looked good, one was to explain his fake read list, and one was a direct response. Brain didn't mention you at all that day outside of the read lists he copied from past games. You two had interacted pretty significantly over the first two days.

[Maniac]

@Maniac:

So I said I'd go back and read your case on Ghug.

Here you are on Day 7:

This is going to come down to me/Vecna/Rdriveria and Ghug picking the last scum or losing. We won’t get much more info that will help with reads, so if you guys can share anything you have now or tonight that will be good.

The way that was worded suggests that you were town-reading Ghug at that point.

Then here you are on Night 8:

I’ve been having a read through Bonatogether D3. He had suspicions about me, Vecna and Fox and voted fox. Vecna was his weakest scum read.

From scum POV using the frame on Vecna makes sense. Framing a townie gets them killed, but framing one of their own gets them a pass in to late game. They could’ve anticipated that bonatogether would scan from the maniac/foxy/Vecna pool and if Vecna is scum they they would frame him and hope the shaman would they reveal bonatogether’s result.

It’s a good play for sure. I still feel as if Ghug is scum, but no one apart from Jamie is clear.

Then you said:

I'd like to commit to re=reading everything Ghug and Rdriveria have said, but in truth my overall impression is that the remaining scum is Ghug and I can't see me voting any other way. I don't recall either of them doing anything particularly useful but if ghug were town I'd expect much more engagement and him trying to lead town and more scum hunting. It could be because a lot of kills became guided by mechanics that everyone took a back seat, idk.

With regards to defending myself. I was quiet initially because of real life stuff which definitely didn't include visiting my aunt. I'm 54 so my aunts are all elderly and we're still in strict lockdown here in the UK. I think BB was trying to plant a seed that I had spoken about my aunts in the mafia thread. He is lying scum, don't fall for his lies. Apart from that I've tried to look at all the kills even if they have been widely agreed upon and my push on Bob inadvertently led to WorceJ revealing himself. So I should get some town points for that.

In summary, I can't see me voting anyone apart from ghug unless new information comes to light. I'll listen to everyone's arguements, but wanted to state my position clearly.

So you went from implying that Ghug was a town-lean, to being savagely committed to voting for Ghug no matter what, despite not having re-read him, and simply on the basis of him "not doing anything particularly useful" which you felt town Ghug would have done.

Really?

This looks as fake as a nine-bob note, old chap.

What??! You say that predicting the final four of Vecna/me/rdr/Ghug is implying Ghug is a town lean? Have a word with yourself Jamie. If you can’t read and understand what is on the page there is little point me writing. But for the last time there are TWO big, hugh things that have happened that should be screaming ‘Maniac is town’ at you. 1 - after brainbomb was exposed he tried to get me scumread by implying I’d spoken about visiting an aunt in scumchat. That’s a hell of a risk if I’m the secretary, but also easily disproven. You and I are both in Uk lockdown. We are visiting anyone at the moment. 2 - my actions directly led to worceJ being exposed when there was zero reason for him to do that. The suggestion that the secretary would signal to town that Bob is the alien only for the item thief to expose themselves arguing that Damo was the alien is laughable.

I suspect Jamie you want to play the town hero and think being clear somehow equates to being right. You’ve now delayed the game past the safe time to hammer and we have all the same issues that we had before. That is poor town play.

My main case against Ghug is solely POE. Rdriveria took a decision at the start of the game that he couldn’t anticipate would have the significance I’m placing on it. I strongly feel in a game with an alien, scum day chat and random numbers in the satellite QT that any player rolling scum would either stay hidden and observe or retain their anonymity. Now I could be very wrong about that, of course I could. But I don’t think I am. Once I’ve made a decision on that then trying to analyse votes or tone or things players have said or how hard they lurk becomes meaningless.

I’m clear that I’m voting Ghug. I will not move to rdriveria or you (obviously). If you want to kill me because of it, go ahead.

[ghug]

@Maniac:

So I said I'd go back and read your case on Ghug.

Here you are on Day 7:

This is going to come down to me/Vecna/Rdriveria and Ghug picking the last scum or losing. We won’t get much more info that will help with reads, so if you guys can share anything you have now or tonight that will be good.

The way that was worded suggests that you were town-reading Ghug at that point.

Then here you are on Night 8:

I’ve been having a read through Bonatogether D3. He had suspicions about me, Vecna and Fox and voted fox. Vecna was his weakest scum read.

From scum POV using the frame on Vecna makes sense. Framing a townie gets them killed, but framing one of their own gets them a pass in to late game. They could’ve anticipated that bonatogether would scan from the maniac/foxy/Vecna pool and if Vecna is scum they they would frame him and hope the shaman would they reveal bonatogether’s result.

It’s a good play for sure. I still feel as if Ghug is scum, but no one apart from Jamie is clear.

Then you said:

I'd like to commit to re=reading everything Ghug and Rdriveria have said, but in truth my overall impression is that the remaining scum is Ghug and I can't see me voting any other way. I don't recall either of them doing anything particularly useful but if ghug were town I'd expect much more engagement and him trying to lead town and more scum hunting. It could be because a lot of kills became guided by mechanics that everyone took a back seat, idk.

With regards to defending myself. I was quiet initially because of real life stuff which definitely didn't include visiting my aunt. I'm 54 so my aunts are all elderly and we're still in strict lockdown here in the UK. I think BB was trying to plant a seed that I had spoken about my aunts in the mafia thread. He is lying scum, don't fall for his lies. Apart from that I've tried to look at all the kills even if they have been widely agreed upon and my push on Bob inadvertently led to WorceJ revealing himself. So I should get some town points for that.

In summary, I can't see me voting anyone apart from ghug unless new information comes to light. I'll listen to everyone's arguements, but wanted to state my position clearly.

So you went from implying that Ghug was a town-lean, to being savagely committed to voting for Ghug no matter what, despite not having re-read him, and simply on the basis of him "not doing anything particularly useful" which you felt town Ghug would have done.

Really?

This looks as fake as a nine-bob note, old chap.

What??! You say that predicting the final four of Vecna/me/rdr/Ghug is implying Ghug is a town lean? Have a word with yourself Jamie. If you can’t read and understand what is on the page there is little point me writing. But for the last time there are TWO big, hugh things that have happened that should be screaming ‘Maniac is town’ at you. 1 - after brainbomb was exposed he tried to get me scumread by implying I’d spoken about visiting an aunt in scumchat. That’s a hell of a risk if I’m the secretary, but also easily disproven. You and I are both in Uk lockdown. We are visiting anyone at the moment. 2 - my actions directly led to worceJ being exposed when there was zero reason for him to do that. The suggestion that the secretary would signal to town that Bob is the alien only for the item thief to expose themselves arguing that Damo was the alien is laughable.

I suspect Jamie you want to play the town hero and think being clear somehow equates to being right. You’ve now delayed the game past the safe time to hammer and we have all the same issues that we had before. That is poor town play.

My main case against Ghug is solely POE. Rdriveria took a decision at the start of the game that he couldn’t anticipate would have the significance I’m placing on it. I strongly feel in a game with an alien, scum day chat and random numbers in the satellite QT that any player rolling scum would either stay hidden and observe or retain their anonymity. Now I could be very wrong about that, of course I could. But I don’t think I am. Once I’ve made a decision on that then trying to analyse votes or tone or things players have said or how hard they lurk becomes meaningless.

I’m clear that I’m voting Ghug. I will not move to rdriveria or you (obviously). If you want to kill me because of it, go ahead.

Where did this Maniac who's so set in his reads for shitty reasons cone from?

You're not clear because brain picked you for some WIFOM. rd is not clear because he revealed his identity in sat phone chat at a time when a mass item claim was a real possibility. I'm not scum because I haven't done anything that fits your backwards definitions of town play.

[Maniac]

Where did this Maniac who's so set in his reads for shitty reasons cone from?

You're not clear because brain picked you for some WIFOM. rd is not clear because he revealed his identity in sat phone chat at a time when a mass item claim was a real possibility. I'm not scum because I haven't done anything that fits your backwards definitions of town play.

When was that ever a real possibility?

[Maniac]

Welcome to the alternative realities of Mafia 65...

Alternative reality 01

The date is 8th March, The scum team of Bunny, Brain, Thamrick, WorceJ and Ghug are discussing their new toys...

Brain: Does anyone have a satellite phone?
Bunny: Nope,
Thamrick: Me neither
WorceJ: I definitely put it on my Xmas list
Ghug: Too bad, but we can wait for someone to say they have a phone, kill them, steal their phone and eavesdrop on their conversation.
All: Great plan master Ghug, please lead us to victory.

Alternative reality 02

The date is 8th March, The scum team of Bunny, Brain, Thamrick, WorceJ and Rdriveria are discussing their new toys...

Brain: Does anyone have a satellite phone?
Rdriveria: I do.
WorceJ: Great, you should stay quiet and eavesdrop.
Thamrick: No you should stay anonymous and negotiate with town if the need arises.
Bunny: Declaring yourself increases our chances of winning by -12.7%; staying quiet increases our chances of winning by 18% and staying anonymous increases our chances of winning by 38%.
Rdriveria: Thanks for advice guys, what I'm going to do is reveal who I am, then plant a seed in Maniac's brain that tells him that I'm obviously town, we'll both get to the end of game and scum will win. Hurrah.
Brain: OK...you sure you have a phone and not the holy herb?

[rdrivera2005]

@Jamiet - I know that the fact that Ghug is voting me is probably influencing me on a OMGUS, but I ask you to take another look at Ghug, specially in the first days and give a second thought.
I was thinking about how Brain and Ghug interacted last time they were both scum together and also on how Brain interacted with Maniac and it still points me to Ghug.

[Jamiet99uk]

Where did this Maniac who's so set in his reads for shitty reasons cone from?

You're not clear because brain picked you for some WIFOM. rd is not clear because he revealed his identity in sat phone chat at a time when a mass item claim was a real possibility. I'm not scum because I haven't done anything that fits your backwards definitions of town play.

When was that ever a real possibility?

Yes. We probably would have made a mass item claim if it wasn't for a misleading GM answer from Darg (sorry Darg) as both Vecna and I previously observed.

[Jamiet99uk]

Welcome to the alternative realities of Mafia 65...

Alternative reality 01

The date is 8th March, The scum team of Bunny, Brain, Thamrick, WorceJ and Ghug are discussing their new toys...

Brain: Does anyone have a satellite phone?
Bunny: Nope,
Thamrick: Me neither
WorceJ: I definitely put it on my Xmas list
Ghug: Too bad, but we can wait for someone to say they have a phone, kill them, steal their phone and eavesdrop on their conversation.
All: Great plan master Ghug, please lead us to victory.

Alternative reality 02

The date is 8th March, The scum team of Bunny, Brain, Thamrick, WorceJ and Rdriveria are discussing their new toys...

Brain: Does anyone have a satellite phone?
Rdriveria: I do.
WorceJ: Great, you should stay quiet and eavesdrop.
Thamrick: No you should stay anonymous and negotiate with town if the need arises.
Bunny: Declaring yourself increases our chances of winning by -12.7%; staying quiet increases our chances of winning by 18% and staying anonymous increases our chances of winning by 38%.
Rdriveria: Thanks for advice guys, what I'm going to do is reveal who I am, then plant a seed in Maniac's brain that tells him that I'm obviously town, we'll both get to the end of game and scum will win. Hurrah.
Brain: OK...you sure you have a phone and not the holy herb?

I do not believe either of these realities is true.