Mafia 65: Dreamland II [Hidden]

[rdrivera2005]

Also, how sure you are I am scum? You and Ghug can both vote end now and we will either lose or we clear Maniac.

[Jamiet99uk]

I haven’t seen anything that would convince me to change from Ghug.

That’s not holding anyone to tansome. I believe in my read. I’d sooner lose if I’m wrong that change and lose because I sheeped someone.

A tie is bad for us, but tomorrow is the same deal. I’ll vote Ghug and the chips will fall where they fall.

Then we may as well try to finish it today. I will go back and re-read your case against Ghug.

[Jamiet99uk]

Also, how sure you are I am scum? You and Ghug can both vote end now and we will either lose or we clear Maniac.

What?

[ghug]

Remind me what Rdrivera's item was?

Sat phone.

Oh of course sorry. And Maniac had this item also.

And you, Ghug, claimed to have a Med Kit / Triage Kit, and you used it on me but I wasn't attacked (but the heal was still expended), is that correct?

Yes.

[Jamiet99uk]

Also, how sure you are I am scum? You and Ghug can both vote end now and we will either lose or we clear Maniac.

What?

Seriously, what is this nonsense? If Ghug and I both voted END, that would only be 50% of the remaining players and the phase would not end because that is not a majority.

[ghug]

I haven’t seen anything that would convince me to change from Ghug.

That’s not holding anyone to tansome. I believe in my read. I’d sooner lose if I’m wrong that change and lose because I sheeped someone.

A tie is bad for us, but tomorrow is the same deal. I’ll vote Ghug and the chips will fall where they fall.

Well then, I think you're throwing the game, so please don't be foolish.

[ghug]

Also, how sure you are I am scum? You and Ghug can both vote end now and we will either lose or we clear Maniac.

What?

Seriously, what is this nonsense? If Ghug and I both voted END, that would only be 50% of the remaining players and the phase would not end because that is not a majority.

He's saying that Maniac will either join us in hammering him and give us the win, or clear himself by not doing so. It's the same way you were cleared last game.

[Jamiet99uk]

I haven’t seen anything that would convince me to change from Ghug.

That’s not holding anyone to tansome. I believe in my read. I’d sooner lose if I’m wrong that change and lose because I sheeped someone.

A tie is bad for us, but tomorrow is the same deal. I’ll vote Ghug and the chips will fall where they fall.

Well then, I think you're throwing the game, so please don't be foolish.

Come on Ghug, don't say silly things. It's not game throwing if he is town, and he genuinely scumreads you. (And it's not game throwing if he's scum, either).

[ghug]

I haven’t seen anything that would convince me to change from Ghug.

That’s not holding anyone to tansome. I believe in my read. I’d sooner lose if I’m wrong that change and lose because I sheeped someone.

A tie is bad for us, but tomorrow is the same deal. I’ll vote Ghug and the chips will fall where they fall.

Well then, I think you're throwing the game, so please don't be foolish.

Come on Ghug, don't say silly things. It's not game throwing if he is town, and he genuinely scumreads you. (And it's not game throwing if he's scum, either).

I'm saying I know I'm town and think his town, so his mindset will lead to a certain loss that could have been avoided.

[Jamiet99uk]

Well then, I think you're throwing the game, so please don't be foolish.

Come on Ghug, don't say silly things. It's not game throwing if he is town, and he genuinely scumreads you. (And it's not game throwing if he's scum, either).

I'm saying I know I'm town and think his town, so his mindset will lead to a certain loss that could have been avoided.

Yes but throwing is a deliberate act of stupidity.
You're not accusing him of knowingly voting town, are you?

[rdrivera2005]

Well then, I think you're throwing the game, so please don't be foolish.

Come on Ghug, don't say silly things. It's not game throwing if he is town, and he genuinely scumreads you. (And it's not game throwing if he's scum, either).

I'm saying I know I'm town and think his town, so his mindset will lead to a certain loss that could have been avoided.

By the way, I want you to explain why you think my push on Brain and Worcej was flat considering I never really pushed them?

[ghug]

Come on Ghug, don't say silly things. It's not game throwing if he is town, and he genuinely scumreads you. (And it's not game throwing if he's scum, either).

I'm saying I know I'm town and think his town, so his mindset will lead to a certain loss that could have been avoided.

By the way, I want you to explain why you think my push on Brain and Worcej was flat considering I never really pushed them?

That's what's flat. Vecna wanted to give you credit for having good reads. I don't want to give you credit for those reads, because scumreading scum and not pushing it is a thing scum do.

[ghug]

Come on Ghug, don't say silly things. It's not game throwing if he is town, and he genuinely scumreads you. (And it's not game throwing if he's scum, either).

I'm saying I know I'm town and think his town, so his mindset will lead to a certain loss that could have been avoided.

Yes but throwing is a deliberate act of stupidity.
You're not accusing him of knowingly voting town, are you?

No. Our disagreement here is purely semantics.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Maniac:

So I said I'd go back and read your case on Ghug.

Here you are on Day 7:

This is going to come down to me/Vecna/Rdriveria and Ghug picking the last scum or losing. We won’t get much more info that will help with reads, so if you guys can share anything you have now or tonight that will be good.

The way that was worded suggests that you were town-reading Ghug at that point.

Then here you are on Night 8:

I’ve been having a read through Bonatogether D3. He had suspicions about me, Vecna and Fox and voted fox. Vecna was his weakest scum read.

From scum POV using the frame on Vecna makes sense. Framing a townie gets them killed, but framing one of their own gets them a pass in to late game. They could’ve anticipated that bonatogether would scan from the maniac/foxy/Vecna pool and if Vecna is scum they they would frame him and hope the shaman would they reveal bonatogether’s result.

It’s a good play for sure. I still feel as if Ghug is scum, but no one apart from Jamie is clear.

Then you said:

I'd like to commit to re=reading everything Ghug and Rdriveria have said, but in truth my overall impression is that the remaining scum is Ghug and I can't see me voting any other way. I don't recall either of them doing anything particularly useful but if ghug were town I'd expect much more engagement and him trying to lead town and more scum hunting. It could be because a lot of kills became guided by mechanics that everyone took a back seat, idk.

With regards to defending myself. I was quiet initially because of real life stuff which definitely didn't include visiting my aunt. I'm 54 so my aunts are all elderly and we're still in strict lockdown here in the UK. I think BB was trying to plant a seed that I had spoken about my aunts in the mafia thread. He is lying scum, don't fall for his lies. Apart from that I've tried to look at all the kills even if they have been widely agreed upon and my push on Bob inadvertently led to WorceJ revealing himself. So I should get some town points for that.

In summary, I can't see me voting anyone apart from ghug unless new information comes to light. I'll listen to everyone's arguements, but wanted to state my position clearly.

So you went from implying that Ghug was a town-lean, to being savagely committed to voting for Ghug no matter what, despite not having re-read him, and simply on the basis of him "not doing anything particularly useful" which you felt town Ghug would have done.

Really?

This looks as fake as a nine-bob note, old chap.

[Jamiet99uk]

Maniac is behaving as if he's so convinced of Ghug's guilt he is willing to lose the game if he's wrong.

Yet his reasoning for voting Ghug is paper thin.

This is scum Maniac.

##VOTE MANIAC

[Jamiet99uk]

I encourage Rdrivera and Ghug to move to Maniac.

[rdrivera2005]

I encourage Rdrivera and Ghug to move to Maniac.

If we are not ending now I will stay on Ghug a bit longer.

[ghug]

I encourage Rdrivera and Ghug to move to Maniac.

I'll move whenever you're ready to be done, but I'd like you to at least consider/rebut my rdr case, because I still think he's the better bet.

[rdrivera2005]

I'm saying I know I'm town and think his town, so his mindset will lead to a certain loss that could have been avoided.

By the way, I want you to explain why you think my push on Brain and Worcej was flat considering I never really pushed them?

That's what's flat. Vecna wanted to give you credit for having good reads. I don't want to give you credit for those reads, because scumreading scum and not pushing it is a thing scum do.

I disagree, I usually bus to the end when I am scum, exactly because of this kind of thinking, but it's all WIFOM.

I also want to understand why you decided to vote Chaqa D1? Do you have ever seen Chaqa play that way as scum? My main reason to scumread Brain, you and Vecna was voting for Chaqa when you all know well his meta. Vecna told he would have changed if he was online at EOD. Brain was scum, what's your excuse?

[rdrivera2005]

I encourage Rdrivera and Ghug to move to Maniac.

I'll move whenever you're ready to be done, but I'd like you to at least consider/rebut my rdr case, because I still think he's the better bet.

Hard to rebut a case that is just based on feeling or on "scum usually does this".