Mafia 65: Dreamland II [Hidden]

[damo666]

Alien win con count doesn't include alien themselves if dead right?

I know dead alien can win but I assume they are not included in count.

Assuming we are currently 6-4

Dk celaph 6-3

NK alien , immunity kicks in 6-3

Dk alien . Alien loses.


NK non infectee 5-3

@Vecna I don't follow when you say we can't kill outed alien.

[Vecna]

it used the wrong logic of the alien controlling the votes of all his infected pawns

[damo666]

Ah ok

[Vecna]

guess the remainder of this day will be people catching up and pointing out that mistake

[rdrivera2005]

@rdrivera/maniac do you feel anything happened in the phone QT to cause scum to NK jasnah day2?

Well, I missed all EMC messages on the phone QT. I wasn't online and they were deleted and we should not talk about it. But it was N1.

On N2 we agreed to work as masons and vote together. I think this explains that weird Jasnah message about sheeping me (in fact he will be calling the vote with a code). Our targets are most likely Fox, Brain and Vecna (hence my comment about Jasnah scum reading Vecna that I didn't explain at the time, it was on QT and not main thread).

Nothing to suggest Jasnah was a PR I assume then?

She didn't disclose this info on QT, but I tend to think yes considering the way she played.

[rdrivera2005]

Also, you guys forget: if im the alien, I have already won at this point, because Id have 5 votes at my disposal and Celaph would not be the person dying today because id simply tie the vote. Even with damo using a kit and scum killing an infected target, with a reinfection id still have 4 DNA infected people tomorrow so id be in auto win.

unless one infected target died, im effectively cleared of being the alien

Your marh is wrong. Alien can manipulate only two votes, so we still kill him tomorrow regardless. So, we have two shots if we kill Celaph.

[damo666]

Alien win con count doesn't include alien themselves if dead right?

I know dead alien can win but I assume they are not included in count.

Assuming we are currently 6-4

Dk celaph 6-3

NK alien , immunity kicks in 6-3

Dk alien . Alien loses.


NK non infectee 5-3

@Vecna I don't follow when you say we can't kill outed alien.

This is wrong because I forgot alien infecting/killing

So again assuming We DK an infected non alien celaph we go to 6-3.

N5 scum NK alien, alien infects 5-4
We must kill the alien D6, scum must tell us if we are voting incorrectly.

N5 scum NK uninfected, alien infects 4-4
Obviously then we must do alien D6

N5 scum NK infectee, alien infects 5-3
An extra day.

[damo666]

Also, you guys forget: if im the alien, I have already won at this point, because Id have 5 votes at my disposal and Celaph would not be the person dying today because id simply tie the vote. Even with damo using a kit and scum killing an infected target, with a reinfection id still have 4 DNA infected people tomorrow so id be in auto win.

unless one infected target died, im effectively cleared of being the alien

Your marh is wrong. Alien can manipulate only two votes, so we still kill him tomorrow regardless. So, we have two shots if we kill Celaph.

3 shots if scum NK infectee, improbable but possible

[damo666]

guess the remainder of this day will be people catching up and pointing out that mistake

And ofc u r right lol

[rdrivera2005]

Alien win con count doesn't include alien themselves if dead right?

I know dead alien can win but I assume they are not included in count.

Assuming we are currently 6-4

Dk celaph 6-3

NK alien , immunity kicks in 6-3

Dk alien . Alien loses.


NK non infectee 5-3

@Vecna I don't follow when you say we can't kill outed alien.

You are forgetting Alien infects one more even if targeted to NK. So if scum target Alien it's likely 5-4 tomorrow.
If scum target non infected it's 4-4 and we need to kill Alien and hope scum kill an infected N6.

[rdrivera2005]

Also, you guys forget: if im the alien, I have already won at this point, because Id have 5 votes at my disposal and Celaph would not be the person dying today because id simply tie the vote. Even with damo using a kit and scum killing an infected target, with a reinfection id still have 4 DNA infected people tomorrow so id be in auto win.

unless one infected target died, im effectively cleared of being the alien

Your marh is wrong. Alien can manipulate only two votes, so we still kill him tomorrow regardless. So, we have two shots if we kill Celaph.

3 shots if scum NK infectee, improbable but possible

The problem is that scum have the same info as us about who is infected. After Celaph is dead it means none.

[damo666]

Remember the NK comes after the new infection so there are 3 infectees scum could NK

[Maniac]

##call GM

If we are at say 4 alien DNA out of 9 players at EOD and alien infects 1 more player and scum kill an infected player. Because the infection happens first do we move to 5 alien DNA/ 9 player and game over alien win, or does the scum kill happen a bit later but simultaneously in this situation so we could be 4 alien DNA / 8 players and still in with a chance of victory if we keep killing alien DNA?

[Jamiet99uk]

##call GM

If we are at say 4 alien DNA out of 9 players at EOD and alien infects 1 more player and scum kill an infected player. Because the infection happens first do we move to 5 alien DNA/ 9 player and game over alien win, or does the scum kill happen a bit later but simultaneously in this situation so we could be 4 alien DNA / 8 players and still in with a chance of victory if we keep killing alien DNA?

Victory can only be determined at the end of a phase, come on.

[damo666]

##call GM

If we are at say 4 alien DNA out of 9 players at EOD and alien infects 1 more player and scum kill an infected player. Because the infection happens first do we move to 5 alien DNA/ 9 player and game over alien win, or does the scum kill happen a bit later but simultaneously in this situation so we could be 4 alien DNA / 8 players and still in with a chance of victory if we keep killing alien DNA?

Victory can only be determined at the end of a phase, come on.

This is actually quite important. I would have interpreted it as game over so not as obvious as you imply (although I do bow to your GM experience). I do think it deserves an answer.

[damo666]

##call GM

If we are at say 4 alien DNA out of 9 players at EOD and alien infects 1 more player and scum kill an infected player. Because the infection happens first do we move to 5 alien DNA/ 9 player and game over alien win, or does the scum kill happen a bit later but simultaneously in this situation so we could be 4 alien DNA / 8 players and still in with a chance of victory if we keep killing alien DNA?

[Maniac]

##call GM

If we are at say 4 alien DNA out of 9 players at EOD and alien infects 1 more player and scum kill an infected player. Because the infection happens first do we move to 5 alien DNA/ 9 player and game over alien win, or does the scum kill happen a bit later but simultaneously in this situation so we could be 4 alien DNA / 8 players and still in with a chance of victory if we keep killing alien DNA?

Victory can only be determined at the end of a phase, come on.

Cheers it's what I expected, but didn't want to make an error here.

So worst case if vecna is lying we could be at 5 Alien DNA / 10 players. We kill celaph (4/9) alien infects (5/9) or kills (4/8) and we rely on scum killing an infected townie for us (town) to still be in the game. Not a great position for us particularly if some of those infected are also scum as they won't target themselves. So in effect we are relying on scum to make the decision we are avoiding today ie finding alien DNA without a positive scan. That's not good play.

Assuming vecna is truthful we are at worst 4/10. Suppose we then make a complete mess of DK and kill an uninfected town. (4/9) alien infects (5/9) and scum HAVE to hit an infected townie for town to survive. Not great, but we've left them celaph to kill. If celaph is none scum they have to kill him, if he is alien, he wins. That's not good, but this is good play as it forces scum to try and kill someone that we want dead.

But suppose vecna is truthful (4/10) and we take a chance and hit infected town or scum (3/9) alien infects (4/9) what do scum do? could they afford to make it (4/8) and hope we keep hitting alien? Or do they hold their kill? Either way we have reduced alien DNA and possible scum pool which is good play.

If we got lucky in above an hit the secretary, we have massive advantage over scum as Rdrivera and I are as good as cleared of being item thief.

I think celaph isn't alien so we also stand a better chance of hitting alien if we go for a non-celaph kill. Still assuming vecna is truthful we then go (3/9) alien and scum can still win, but we are favorites I think.

In summary. If vecna is lying we're screwed anyway, so killing non-celaph target is fine.

If vecna is telling the truth and we cock-up a kill, scum have to kill celaph. If celaph is alien we lose if we don't kill him today.

If we kill non-celaph today we increase chances (IMHO) of killing alien or scum and winning the game.

All this needs is Jamie to direct the kill and we all jump on.

Hope all that make sense

[Jamiet99uk]

##call GM

If we are at say 4 alien DNA out of 9 players at EOD and alien infects 1 more player and scum kill an infected player. Because the infection happens first do we move to 5 alien DNA/ 9 player and game over alien win, or does the scum kill happen a bit later but simultaneously in this situation so we could be 4 alien DNA / 8 players and still in with a chance of victory if we keep killing alien DNA?

Victory can only be determined at the end of a phase, come on.

This is actually quite important. I would have interpreted it as game over so not as obvious as you imply (although I do bow to your GM experience). I do think it deserves an answer.

If that was the case, kills usually happen before doc saves in normal adjudication, so in any such game, if Mafia needed one more NK to win, they would win despite a successful docsave on their target... which is nonsense.

[Jamiet99uk]

##call GM

If we are at say 4 alien DNA out of 9 players at EOD and alien infects 1 more player and scum kill an infected player. Because the infection happens first do we move to 5 alien DNA/ 9 player and game over alien win, or does the scum kill happen a bit later but simultaneously in this situation so we could be 4 alien DNA / 8 players and still in with a chance of victory if we keep killing alien DNA?

Victory can only be determined at the end of a phase, come on.

Cheers it's what I expected, but didn't want to make an error here.

So worst case if vecna is lying we could be at 5 Alien DNA / 10 players. We kill celaph (4/9) alien infects (5/9) or kills (4/8) and we rely on scum killing an infected townie for us (town) to still be in the game. Not a great position for us particularly if some of those infected are also scum as they won't target themselves. So in effect we are relying on scum to make the decision we are avoiding today ie finding alien DNA without a positive scan. That's not good play.

Assuming vecna is truthful we are at worst 4/10. Suppose we then make a complete mess of DK and kill an uninfected town. (4/9) alien infects (5/9) and scum HAVE to hit an infected townie for town to survive. Not great, but we've left them celaph to kill. If celaph is none scum they have to kill him, if he is alien, he wins. That's not good, but this is good play as it forces scum to try and kill someone that we want dead.

But suppose vecna is truthful (4/10) and we take a chance and hit infected town or scum (3/9) alien infects (4/9) what do scum do? could they afford to make it (4/8) and hope we keep hitting alien? Or do they hold their kill? Either way we have reduced alien DNA and possible scum pool which is good play.

If we got lucky in above an hit the secretary, we have massive advantage over scum as Rdrivera and I are as good as cleared of being item thief.

I think celaph isn't alien so we also stand a better chance of hitting alien if we go for a non-celaph kill. Still assuming vecna is truthful we then go (3/9) alien and scum can still win, but we are favorites I think.

In summary. If vecna is lying we're screwed anyway, so killing non-celaph target is fine.

If vecna is telling the truth and we cock-up a kill, scum have to kill celaph. If celaph is alien we lose if we don't kill him today.

If we kill non-celaph today we increase chances (IMHO) of killing alien or scum and winning the game.

All this needs is Jamie to direct the kill and we all jump on.

Hope all that make sense

A problem is that infection status is not revealed on flip.

So if we kill someone other than Celaph, and that person is not the Alien, we will have no way of knowing whether that person was infected or not.... unless we kill the person I scanned last night, that is.

[Jamiet99uk]

If celaph is alien we lose if we don't kill him today.

All this needs is Jamie to direct the kill and we all jump on.

Hope all that make sense

Jamie says: Please kill Celaph.