MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[BunnyGo]

##vote ezio

Hey bunny, gimme some hot-takes on your reads

You seem to be all over the place

hot takes (given ad hoc while reading bot for reminder of who is in the game):

celaph: less insightful, useful, precise and focused than I remember.
Hellenic: strange EOD1, but forgiveable. Had some strange plays, but still a null for me.
kgray: town (but always wary)
ezio: COME BACK AND ANSWER QUESTIONS!!!
ghug: ugh. I find it hard to read ghug in general. I'm not seeing anything decisive here.
emc: yeah, he's absent. It's emc. I dunno, there's time still.
Bona: town
damo: weird, but townlean. I don't see a reason to doubt his claims yet
Bob: I still wonder if he's being too towny to be town. I could totally believe he's an SK or mafia.
brainbomb: ....
Bunny: ME!
Demon: I haven't noticed him today. What happened? No idea.
Hamilton: I was already town reading him from D1 (you can look it up). The latest drama only solidifies that
jasnah: hard to read. null, but not really hunting or trying to from my pov.
Macca: COME WAKE UP AND VOTE AND DON'T BE MODKILLED
Vecna: welcome back, null
rdr: enjoy the beach, null
Maniac: I dunno.

[ghug]

Nah. In M62 you scumread/scumleaned/shaded like 8 different people just on D1. You've done none of that here.

I pushed wagons on people I didn't like and was very explicit about that.

In M62? It wasn't just that. I'll pull quotes if I need to.

I vaguely recall trying to convince people ND was actually scum because it was what I needed to do to get him killed, but I think the first strong scumreads I developed were damo, Balki, and brain, and that was later on (and after a scum flip). If you want to find quotes, go right ahead.

How do you feel about Ezio now? Why were you townreading him to begin with?

[celaph]

I've been writing and haven't actually read the thread since my last message. I just refreshed the votes and saw that a lot has changed. Figured it was better to send this now before I catch back up. I want to vote for someone out of Ezio, damo, Macca, Maniac, and emc. With those first two being more preferred than the rest.

Ezio has showed a lot more competence this day, but it feels like he is hiding behind it to make his plays. A lot of his work seems to be focused on theoretical arguments about how scum should be playing while not seeming to apply those to his reads. For example, he talks about how scum should be hunting, yet isn't voting for someone who is hunting. When talking about my play the line "(and this early in the game chance has it he's town)" actually touches very little on anything that has been said. What does he think of the arguments?

Regarding Damo, I disagree with kgray's characterization of Damo as one whose town votes are all over the place. Looking at last game I think Damo's votes were actually relatively easy to follow if sometimes misplaced. He voted Bozo after Bozo had done annoyingly changed the colors of the text in his messages. He voted Maniac because he has said he was going to follow weird rules in a rigid and scummy way. D2 he voted me because RHK had scumread me D1 and then died D1. Not only were his votes justified, but they tracked the flow of conversation well and in a way that I see less here.

Macca hasn't seriously dug into any of the things that they have been commenting on. They've asked some decent questions and posted immediate reactions to what's happening, but it hasn't really manifested itself as decent reads. The one reads list they have posted has been rather superficial and mirrored existing sentiments heavily.

I've talked a fair amount about why I think Maniac may be scum, but I think that he's moved more towards the Maniac I remember today and has thus slid towards null. I don't entirely disagree with Ezio's argument that Maniac wouldn't target kgray here, but it seems to be based on very little without backing in scum Maniac games.

EMC feels like a particularly meh wagon. There is nothing to like, but there is also nothing to hate. @vecna, you've had good reads on emc the past two games, what are your thoughts now?

I've heard some people throw out Jasnah's name as a wagon option. I'm not particularly a fan of this. She has certainly been less insightful today and overall not explained her reads, but she was insightful D1 and her behavior today I think is well explained by her own statement that she was going to be inactive today.

[BunnyGo]

@celaph damo was scum back in M61 and M62, were his votes meaningfully different then?

[kgray]

Here's a bunch of examples of ghug finding reasons to scumread people when he was town in M62 on D1:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.

##VOTE KGRAY

So... you think I’m town then? How does this make any sense?

Oh this is scum kgray

Forgot the game started today.
Since I was daykilled d1 last game, I'm going to take advantage of the short grace period and not do anything today because day 1s are hard.

Same question: when did you read your PM?

Lol Bunny is scum again

I missed a fewsy games here n there an everywhere but I know that name hamilton brian, hows he play the game?

Passive IMO - if he's scum, he will be weak and need coaching from the team veterans. He is also a little weak/hesitant if a PR.

#loveyouHB

I am just being drunk-honest.

Oh also he's scum.

Idk if it was you. Somebody compared me to Chaqa and bo. Bunny compared me to ND because he's a monster.

lol yeah right freak

Oh ND is actually scum. Cool

Highkey hate this post.

What do you hate about it

It feels like its only propose is to be on record as having mentioned me, and yet you gave it two whole awkward sentences.

I can see Durga being scum here, especially since we're destined to never be on the same team. But I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong Durgles; there are better candidates today.

I dont think we wanna kill off vash day 1. that has backfired before...

Defending teammate Vash here under almost no pressure would be very scumbrain.

I'd prefer to vote one of: Neph, ND, Bunny, damo or worcej. In that order, I think.

I don't like Neph or Bunny in this list. I am scumreading damo some, but he's generally competent enough that I won't vote for him today. Same with Durga.

I'd throw Chaqa, Brian, Vash, Yoyo in the acceptable due to shittiness pile. Maniac too, maybe. I townread Jamie, so not him.

If we can't kill ND, we should kill brain or Maniac or worcej.

I don't think we should kill brain. Or worcej, actually. And I don't see a case for Maniac.

Are these just more people you don't think are good? Who do you actually scumread?

Maniac is uselessness and unreadability. Worcej is purely badness and personal dislike. I actually like his push on me, so he's my least favorite. I actually do scumread brain. I'd been noticing the same thing as Flum about him being less the center of attention (which could on its own be an NAI change in personality). I don't like the way he voted for Maniac, and I don't like the way he's talked about Vash (I've called this out in the moment a couple of times). I legitimately scumread ND as well.

I scumread damo some, but don't want to kill him today. Flum too. Durga was in this group, but she's had a good last hour or two.

I townread you, Neph, celaph, jamie, Bunny, starting to lean that way on Durga.

He did that once in this game:

Oh, I assumed darg just had a typo.

So you don't think Bunny's or ghug's vote for me is weird? Do you think they're good votes?

Not really. Not this early in the game. I might be incorrect in my inferring (so stop assuming Brian), but both probably have meta they might be playing off and I’m too close to be to dig into the reasons for their vote. I don’t think it’s anything right now.

Brian's scum again

[ghug]

I like this post from celaph, but I feel like it was exactly what he knew he needed to do, so he doesn't get as much credit.

[kgray]

I pushed wagons on people I didn't like and was very explicit about that.

In M62? It wasn't just that. I'll pull quotes if I need to.

I vaguely recall trying to convince people ND was actually scum because it was what I needed to do to get him killed, but I think the first strong scumreads I developed were damo, Balki, and brain, and that was later on (and after a scum flip). If you want to find quotes, go right ahead.

How do you feel about Ezio now? Why were you townreading him to begin with?

I was townreading him because I thought he was softing a PR better than doc, and because I felt like except for the no-kill stuff the things he was promoting were pro-town and made sense to me. I am not scumreading him just because he lied here, although if he can't come up with a good explanation then I'll be pretty suspicious. But at the same time, I doubt that he doesn't have a good explanation ready if he's scum.

[DemonRHK]

My preferred order of wagons for today is HR, cel, Maniac, Ezio

I still make the case that many of HR's mid-day posts came from a position of being on a scumteam looking at a scan against the opposite team (mafia gauging a alien scan), and is currently hammering a towny who is widely read as such and as close to conf to the game at large as is possible.

Cel is a widely reviewed and debated case. I am not satisfied with the weak post when on the precipice of death, the tonality of some posting, and the aforementioned scan issue. This also helps clear or prove some of my HR suspicions.

[kgray]

I've heard some people throw out Jasnah's name as a wagon option. I'm not particularly a fan of this. She has certainly been less insightful today and overall not explained her reads, but she was insightful D1 and her behavior today I think is well explained by her own statement that she was going to be inactive today.

How can you think she's been insightful if she never explains any of her thoughts?

[kgray]

##vote damo

[Hamilton Brian]

I was under the impression that targets would know they were scanned.

[kgray]

If HR doesn't show up before EOD I'd love to flashwagon him.

[ghug]

Here's a bunch of examples of ghug finding reasons to scumread people when he was town in M62 on D1:

So... you think I’m town then? How does this make any sense?

Oh this is scum kgray

Same question: when did you read your PM?

Lol Bunny is scum again

Passive IMO - if he's scum, he will be weak and need coaching from the team veterans. He is also a little weak/hesitant if a PR.

#loveyouHB

I am just being drunk-honest.

Oh also he's scum.

lol yeah right freak

Oh ND is actually scum. Cool

What do you hate about it

It feels like its only propose is to be on record as having mentioned me, and yet you gave it two whole awkward sentences.

I can see Durga being scum here, especially since we're destined to never be on the same team. But I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong Durgles; there are better candidates today.

I dont think we wanna kill off vash day 1. that has backfired before...

Defending teammate Vash here under almost no pressure would be very scumbrain.

I'd prefer to vote one of: Neph, ND, Bunny, damo or worcej. In that order, I think.

I don't like Neph or Bunny in this list. I am scumreading damo some, but he's generally competent enough that I won't vote for him today. Same with Durga.

I'd throw Chaqa, Brian, Vash, Yoyo in the acceptable due to shittiness pile. Maniac too, maybe. I townread Jamie, so not him.

I don't think we should kill brain. Or worcej, actually. And I don't see a case for Maniac.

Are these just more people you don't think are good? Who do you actually scumread?

Maniac is uselessness and unreadability. Worcej is purely badness and personal dislike. I actually like his push on me, so he's my least favorite. I actually do scumread brain. I'd been noticing the same thing as Flum about him being less the center of attention (which could on its own be an NAI change in personality). I don't like the way he voted for Maniac, and I don't like the way he's talked about Vash (I've called this out in the moment a couple of times). I legitimately scumread ND as well.

I scumread damo some, but don't want to kill him today. Flum too. Durga was in this group, but she's had a good last hour or two.

I townread you, Neph, celaph, jamie, Bunny, starting to lean that way on Durga.

He did that once in this game:

Not really. Not this early in the game. I might be incorrect in my inferring (so stop assuming Brian), but both probably have meta they might be playing off and I’m too close to be to dig into the reasons for their vote. I don’t think it’s anything right now.

Brian's scum again

So I called a bunch of people scum naked, made a list of people I wanted to kill for shiftiness, and scumread mostly just brain.

I'll admit to not having as strong of a D1 scumread as that brain read this game, but the celaph and fishy reads seem on par with my other opinions there, and I was building a townpool faster than a scumpool.

[kgray]

So I called a bunch of people scum naked, made a list of people I wanted to kill for shiftiness, and scumread mostly just brain.

I'll admit to not having as strong of a D1 scumread as that brain read this game, but the celaph and fishy reads seem on par with my other opinions there, and I was building a townpool faster than a scumpool.

It's not just about having strong scumreads, it's about looking for things you find scummy.

[BunnyGo]

@kgray nice post. Here's a possible continuation. I just skimmed M63 when he was scum. He only did it twice D1:

M63 ghug was scum:

Damo looks very sketchy so far.

@Damo: Could you explain your vote for Maniac, and provide an update on your current thoughts about Bozo? Thanks.

My vote on Maniac is due to his rules nonsense and also I think his methods aren't helpful to town even if he is town.

I was wary of Bozo because of the colours and his abnormal light-heartedness however I think the colours was some mad dark mode = scum nonsense theory he was investigating (or spoofing?) and the light-heartedness is NAI (actually probably tending townwards because as scum he would be conscious to not be abnormal). Summary: defo not a D1 DK.

Damo are you scum again?

I dont know that I feel the same about Maniac this game as I did last game. On the one hand he is about the same in terms of involvement. And then there is all this strange stuff about personal rules he sets for himself on reading the game thread. Not sure where any of this comes from. I dont trust Bona here, only after being pushed by me did bona start trying to seem above the curve in terms of post habits. Im going to fight the urge to distrust the wagon merely because someone scummy has joined it. could be an early bus, could be a save on ND. really dunno which.

##Vote Maniac

brain are you actually scum this time?

What. I only get old man past his bedtime vibes.

Finally someone else understands bunny. More seriously, Bunny got townread by a lot of people D1 last game. This feels like Bunny did a lot of work for something last game and wasn't able to post about it without looking scummy, and they were excited at a chance to share it. That's pretty NAI in my book.

I townread Bunny D1 last game because it felt like he was saying dumb shit unfiltered.

[ghug]

shittiness*

[BunnyGo]

I was under the impression that targets would know they were scanned.

what?

[Bonatogether]

##vote Ezio

We're letting celaph off the hook here, but Ezio's a more solid case.

[kgray]

I really hope this is the game that Bunny and I are finally on the same page as town.

Would you vote ghug today, Bunny?

[kgray]

##vote Ezio

We're letting celaph off the hook here, but Ezio's a more solid case.

What's the solid case against Ezio?