MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[kgray]

bump

^
@celaph. Assuming Damo scanned you, is there a paychotrooper?

Why would Celaph know this?

Because if celaph is not an alien and damo said he's not an alien (and they're not mafia scumbuddies) then celaph knows damo's scan wasn't reversed.

[kgray]

##vote celaph

[ghug]

^
@celaph. Assuming Damo scanned you, is there a paychotrooper?

Why would Celaph know this?

Because if celaph is not an alien and damo said he's not an alien (and they're not mafia scumbuddies) then celaph knows damo's scan wasn't reversed.

What's the point of asking him? He's going to say there isn't.

The fact that he didn't bring it up on his own is a little odd, I'll grant you.

[kgray]

Why would Celaph know this?

Because if celaph is not an alien and damo said he's not an alien (and they're not mafia scumbuddies) then celaph knows damo's scan wasn't reversed.

What's the point of asking him? He's going to say there isn't.

The fact that he didn't bring it up on his own is a little odd, I'll grant you.

Maybe let's all just let celaph answer this please

[celaph]

Celaph iso read:
Very early discard of a goon. Really wants to know if scum has a certain definition? That is a weird concern to have as town.
A read on Bona seems genuine. Something towny.
But casts shade on what I believe to be a slip from Bona. Exceptionally weird he goes from giving bb townpoints to maybe bona did not townslip and it is faked. Why did the first one get complete acceptance compared to Bonas?

I thought neither of them were townslips. My message was specifically that I was giving BB an absurd number of town points because I was joking.

Celaph iso read:
Has a ghug read based on past game. Says more discarded mafia cards mean more mafia? That does not make sense and feels like shade in saying it's only use is limited outside of lovers.

I didn't say more discard mafia meant more people with mafia. I said that more discarded mafia mean that it's more likely that an above average mafia were dealt. It's very likely that at least 9 mafia were dealt as we have 9 mafia discards. The probability that 11-12 mafia were dealt given that at least 9 were is higher than the default probability that 11-12 mafia were dealt. The current mafia team is likely still smaller than expected, but 2-3 instead of 0-1.

Celaph iso read:
Why the lack of confidence in going after someone like Ghug or Bunny? MAybe he does not want to push them?
A good response to Ghug on how he feels ghug has not displayed a thought process yet, not strong enough to vote for?

To your last question, yes actually. I'm not a fan of D1 ghug votes because I think that ghug is good enough town player to keep around a day. I was (obviously) more willing to vote Bunny, but even then only after others confirmed that my meta-read on him was grounded in truth.

##vote lfischl

I think that their D1 has been the most lacking thus far. I'm not a fan of many of the other wagons except Bunny's.

This just feels like jumping on a wagon that seems popular and not his scummate. I don't buy that explanation as this is a first read of lfi.
Weird post about now believing Bunny is the scummiest but the cost would be too high if wrong?

Do you think that I'm voting lfischl without previously going and reading their iso and the arguments around them? Because I did. I believed that Bunny was the scummiest when I made my vote for lfischl, that's why I included them there. I was voting what I thought was the highest expected value.

wtf. Celaph believes emc and vecna are worth keeping around but not lfi. I think a town celaph would have voted for someone with a bit more meat on their bones. This feels like scum wanting to be on a lead wagonthat won't fight back much.

emc here is a very fair criticism. I didn't give him enough thought. Though I only extended the argument of being worth keeping around to Vecna. Is it mean to newbies, yes. But I would much rather my willingness to not vote someone off a scummy D1 be for people I've seen being good at town.

Night 1 Celaph:

celaph did seem a lot more townie when he was up for the daykill two games ago. seems more resigned here?

I have no point to argue. VTs can't clean themselves D1.

Wtf. Why claim so early at night. Last game celaph did a good job of not claiming and I would expect town to be more hesitant to claim right away. Seems scummy for doing so, but could be a panic move.

While the bot shows it as night that was posted near EoD before the vote ended.

Is celaph a mechanical player, because in his eon reads posts he claims there is no mechanical info to work with.

The claim you're referring to is not a complete argument in itself, but rather a point towards why I felt hopeless at EoD1. I'm not a heavily mechanical player (though I'll use them as the dropback), that's why my main point was not a mechanical one.

Repeating myself, is concerned he scumreads maniac for towny things so which one is it?

I've talked about this a bit with kgray. At I think the latter half of this day is also a decent example of this. In the past two games Maniac's train of thought has been exceptionally hard for me to follow and he's done exceptionally scummy things as town. To the point where I don't believe that looking for scummy behavior is the right way to read him. I think early-mid D1 he was different and the mixture of that with the scummy behavior EoD1 made me scumlean him. That said, I think his behavior the latter half of this day is far more like what I remember from him so he's back to a null right now.

While I disagree with your characterization of some points, I think that most of the rest is relatively accurate and fair criticism.

[kgray]

I think it's worth taking a look at celaph's D1 ISO from this game compared to last game. As town in the previous game he gave out so many more (and stronger) opinions, and questioned people's motivations and opinions. Just look at this one (cherry-picked) post from his last town game and tell me if this sounds like the same person in this game:

is aarodactyl still obv-scum?

I dislike this so much.

Why is aaro obv-scum with no mechanical information available? Either he said something really egregious or you're assuming that he is obv-scum until proven otherwise. I don't think he's said anything particularly bad, certainly nothing I would obv-scum him for. I think that assuming obv-scum until proven otherwise is a very bad mindset, not at all like town vecna last game, and begs the question why you're singling out aaro.

You have voiced a dislike of a single aaro post thus far saying that it felt forced and not sufficiently analytical. Are you obv-scumming him off that post alone? Please tell me what you're seeing here because I'm just not seeing it.

Lastly, I think your expectation that town aaro would be particularly analytical D1 is setting yourself up for disappointment. Aaro was widely townread last game because of his behavior D3 when he had more mechanical information to work with. For the first two days, when he was largely/only working off reads he did rather poorly imo.

I'm not seeing much of that skepticism in this game. A majority of his comments/questions are just surface-level and don't show me that he's trying to solve at all. I liked his post about ghug's D1 ND votes from the previous two games, but otherwise I don't see anything that makes me think he's looking to figure out people's motivations or thought processes, which I think he does as town.

[celaph]

Maniac, I liked your post about the psychotrooper. Had a question about it then realized it had a pretty obvious answer.

Do I push my claim today or let the traction on Celaph reach its natural conclusion?

What do you think the natural conclusion of the traction on me is? I've seen a number of people put me down as scum while a number have put me down as null/townlean.

I'm more interested to hear what you think of it.

##VOTE kgray

I think it's going to stall with me being a viable wagon for the next few days.

[celaph]

Umm. I'd like to know why celaph didn't come out and proclaim that we don't have a psychotrooper when damo said he wasn't an alien.

bump

The same reason that I presume Bunny responded to this question the way he did. Assuming Damo scanned me, yes. I'm not convinced that Damo scanned me which makes my flip less likely to confirm the lack of physchotrooper.

[celaph]

Umm. I'd like to know why celaph didn't come out and proclaim that we don't have a psychotrooper when damo said he wasn't an alien.

bump

The same reason that I presume Bunny responded to this question the way he did. Assuming Damo scanned me, yes. I'm not convinced that Damo scanned me which makes my flip less likely to confirm the lack of physchotrooper.

*psychotrooper

[kgray]

Umm. I'd like to know why celaph didn't come out and proclaim that we don't have a psychotrooper when damo said he wasn't an alien.

bump

The same reason that I presume Bunny responded to this question the way he did. Assuming Damo scanned me, yes. I'm not convinced that Damo scanned me which makes my flip less likely to confirm the lack of physchotrooper.

This is not the response I expected.

[kgray]

bump

The same reason that I presume Bunny responded to this question the way he did. Assuming Damo scanned me, yes. I'm not convinced that Damo scanned me which makes my flip less likely to confirm the lack of physchotrooper.

This is not the response I expected.

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

[BunnyGo]

bump

^
@celaph. Assuming Damo scanned you, is there a paychotrooper?

Why would Celaph know this?

Why wouldn’t celaph have said something already?

[BunnyGo]

The same reason that I presume Bunny responded to this question the way he did. Assuming Damo scanned me, yes. I'm not convinced that Damo scanned me which makes my flip less likely to confirm the lack of physchotrooper.

This is not the response I expected.

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I’m on phone and can’t research easy: I remember celaph as methodical, very insightful, and logical with mechs. Is that correct?

[celaph]

The same reason that I presume Bunny responded to this question the way he did. Assuming Damo scanned me, yes. I'm not convinced that Damo scanned me which makes my flip less likely to confirm the lack of physchotrooper.

This is not the response I expected.

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I'm not convinced that damo scanned me because of my earlier argument that I think damo is likely to think through his decisions.

I misunderstood tentacled. I thought it was there for alien sympathizer in the edge case they were alone.

[BunnyGo]

This is not the response I expected.

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I'm not convinced that damo scanned me because of my earlier argument that I think damo is likely to think through his decisions.

I misunderstood tentacled. I thought it was there for alien sympathizer in the edge case they were alone.

If Damo didn’t scan you, what situation do you envision?

[celaph]

This is not the response I expected.

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I’m on phone and can’t research easy: I remember celaph as methodical, very insightful, and logical with mechs. Is that correct?

I like to think this is true.

[BunnyGo]

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I’m on phone and can’t research easy: I remember celaph as methodical, very insightful, and logical with mechs. Is that correct?

I like to think this is true.

What’s happened this game, then?

You haven’t wowed me with insight.
You haven’t displayed knowledge of mechs.

Is something happening irl?

[kgray]

This is not the response I expected.

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I'm not convinced that damo scanned me because of my earlier argument that I think damo is likely to think through his decisions.

I misunderstood tentacled. I thought it was there for alien sympathizer in the edge case they were alone.

But what would be the reason for damo to fake a scan on you, assuming he did think through it and lie deliberately?

[kgray]

This is not the response I expected.

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I’m on phone and can’t research easy: I remember celaph as methodical, very insightful, and logical with mechs. Is that correct?

I think yes to the first two, and I don't remember if he displayed a ton of logic with mechs. I don't remember him interacting with them in a particularly detailed manner.

[celaph]

Why aren't you convinced damo scanned you? What reason does damo have to lie about scanning you?

If you're a VT as you claim, why didn't you consider that you could be tentacled and therefore show up as an alien without the psychotrooper?

I'm not convinced that damo scanned me because of my earlier argument that I think damo is likely to think through his decisions.

I misunderstood tentacled. I thought it was there for alien sympathizer in the edge case they were alone.

If Damo didn’t scan you, what situation do you envision?

I liked HR's argument that my flip doesn't reflect poorly on Damo. He gets to see me die and claim psychotrooper for the next few days without issue. And if I flip tentacled it looks even better for him.