MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[kgray]

Having skimmed the your iso, I have moved you to a null/slight scum. ##vote Hamilton.
I believe the main factors that me scum read Ghug are mainly based on two d1 things. One was the kgray fearkill interaction and the way your votes were at eod. For the eod votes, I don't know if scum you goes hippity hoppity that late. I would expect slightly less movement if main wagons were town and you were scum. Since you were moving around, I think a defense would have come sooner than the vote on ezio if celaph were scum with you. I believe the last part is that I don't see as many jokes or trying to pocket as last game. Finally, I believe there is a factor of paranoia in my brain because of last game where I thought you were town.

It seems like you're assuming celaph is town in this analysis - is that true?

Yes, though I was mostly looking at ghug and not celaph.

Hmm. I'm not a huge fan of you assuming celaph is town and using that to read ghug's EOD actions. Didn't you scumread celaph D1? You ended up on his wagon at EOD.

[ghug]

Hedging. Clearly scum.

lemme put it this way: there is literally nothing more bona could have possibly done to convince me of (his/her(?)) township.
It is glaringly obvious that either bona has an absurd winrate in every talking/diplomacy game ever for being the greatest manipulator, or bona is town. Llooks like a town smells like a town and acts like a town. Bona is town.

Agreed that bona is town, but disagree about Bob being scum. Hedging is NOT scummy.

Thank you kgray. And also props to ezio for making sure I still haven't had a game where I wasn't shot down by someone for hedging. He did this in M50 too.

Hedging is fine as long as it's ambivalence and not rhetoric.

[brainbomb]

ghug could be town
or he couldnt be
but if he were
would a tree falling in the forest make a sound?
how many roads must a man walk down, before you can call him a man?

[Donny Dude]

It seems like you're assuming celaph is town in this analysis - is that true?

Yes, though I was mostly looking at ghug and not celaph.

Hmm. I'm not a huge fan of you assuming celaph is town and using that to read ghug's EOD actions. Didn't you scumread celaph D1? You ended up on his wagon at EOD.

Yes, I did.
Kgray, you do currently scumread celaph so I understand where that is coming from, but my scumread then was based off his voting there.
I should look at celaph and give him a closer look.

[Donny Dude]

we call it parroting or sponging. but there isnt anything scummy about it as long as its natural and sincere.

I am pretty sure Tom would disagree there.
I like working with ideas brainbomb.

[kgray]

@kgray What do you think of brain's accusation against me and Bunny?

Alright, caught up now.

I still think you're pretty solidly town and I still lean town on Bunny, and I don't find brain's points particularly convincing.

But I think it's helpful for town that he's exploring these options, and I'd prefer to see you/Bunny/others reacting to these reads than for you to ask me to exonerate you

[kgray]

You agreed with me.

Being pissed off for being voted is different than feeling personally betrayed, but whatever. I don't think voting for me early this game was particularly off-the-wall anyway.

Voting a player who tends to be pretty good at convincing people in a way that makes them feel personally betrayed and steps out of my established meta seems off-the-wall to me.

I just found it rude and lazy tbh.

[kgray]

Yes, though I was mostly looking at ghug and not celaph.

Hmm. I'm not a huge fan of you assuming celaph is town and using that to read ghug's EOD actions. Didn't you scumread celaph D1? You ended up on his wagon at EOD.

Yes, I did.
Kgray, you do currently scumread celaph so I understand where that is coming from, but my scumread then was based off his voting there.
I should look at celaph and give him a closer look.

I just don't understand how you scumread celaph but then assume he's town when forming your read about ghug?

[Donny Dude]

Hmm. I'm not a huge fan of you assuming celaph is town and using that to read ghug's EOD actions. Didn't you scumread celaph D1? You ended up on his wagon at EOD.

Yes, I did.
Kgray, you do currently scumread celaph so I understand where that is coming from, but my scumread then was based off his voting there.
I should look at celaph and give him a closer look.

I just don't understand how you scumread celaph but then assume he's town when forming your read about ghug?

Kgray, I am not currently scumreading celaph as he is null. Do you believe I am missing a part that effects a read on Ghug?
Plus I am looking at in iso so interactions are not a strong point, I will admit.

[Donny Dude]

Yes, I did.
Kgray, you do currently scumread celaph so I understand where that is coming from, but my scumread then was based off his voting there.
I should look at celaph and give him a closer look.

I just don't understand how you scumread celaph but then assume he's town when forming your read about ghug?

Kgray, I am not currently scumreading celaph as he is null. Do you believe I am missing a part that effects a read on Ghug?
Plus I am looking at in iso so interactions are not a strong point, I will admit.

Plus Kgray, It is d2 and looking at it from a different way than the one I had at the time can help to see something different than assuming the same reads that never change and become stuck in a rut or tunnel.

[ghug]

Yes, I did.
Kgray, you do currently scumread celaph so I understand where that is coming from, but my scumread then was based off his voting there.
I should look at celaph and give him a closer look.

I just don't understand how you scumread celaph but then assume he's town when forming your read about ghug?

Kgray, I am not currently scumreading celaph as he is null. Do you believe I am missing a part that effects a read on Ghug?
Plus I am looking at in iso so interactions are not a strong point, I will admit.

Then why do you assume he's town when reading me?

[Donny Dude]

I just don't understand how you scumread celaph but then assume he's town when forming your read about ghug?

Kgray, I am not currently scumreading celaph as he is null. Do you believe I am missing a part that effects a read on Ghug?
Plus I am looking at in iso so interactions are not a strong point, I will admit.

Then why do you assume he's town when reading me?

I did so because I I thought my read on celaph was based on gut and eod voting and is a read I have not updated since then.

You believe you and celaph have linked alignments?

[ghug]

Kgray, I am not currently scumreading celaph as he is null. Do you believe I am missing a part that effects a read on Ghug?
Plus I am looking at in iso so interactions are not a strong point, I will admit.

Then why do you assume he's town when reading me?

I did so because I I thought my read on celaph was based on gut and eod voting and is a read I have not updated since then.

You believe you and celaph have linked alignments?

Certainly not. You've suggested that you believe that.

[Maniac]

I’ve just woke up to what could be a brilliant idea.

Let’s decide on our daykill say 4hr before EOD. Then everyone MUST vote for that daykill. If we have a coroner then they inspect the body and we get a full list of roles in play. If we don’t get a full list it’s because there is a psycho trooper in play.

Obv this only works if we have a coroner. But the worst thing that can happen is we kill someone who we would have killed anyway.

Thoughts?

[celaph]

Aliens are probably jacked

Also this was before bozo, bunny, HR and celaph had claimed discarded scum rokes. How did you conclude this as early as p12

For the record I claimed discarded goon p3, though I believe the rest of this statement holds.

[BobMcBob]

Kgray, I am not currently scumreading celaph as he is null. Do you believe I am missing a part that effects a read on Ghug?
Plus I am looking at in iso so interactions are not a strong point, I will admit.

Then why do you assume he's town when reading me?

I did so because I I thought my read on celaph was based on gut and eod voting and is a read I have not updated since then.

You believe you and celaph have linked alignments?

Hmm, I'm not digging the way Donny is responding to this questioning. I got lost about where the "assume town!celaph" came into it, but I don't like his response saying he assumed it without any good reason. It doesn't make sense, although I'm not sure what that entails.

[rdrivera2005]

I’ve just woke up to what could be a brilliant idea.

Let’s decide on our daykill say 4hr before EOD. Then everyone MUST vote for that daykill. If we have a coroner then they inspect the body and we get a full list of roles in play. If we don’t get a full list it’s because there is a psycho trooper in play.

Obv this only works if we have a coroner. But the worst thing that can happen is we kill someone who we would have killed anyway.

Thoughts?

I don't think it will work this way as it's a great way to break the game (this will obviously be followed by a massclaim). And even if it works this way we still have the risk of the Psychotrooper.

[Maniac]

I’ve just woke up to what could be a brilliant idea.

Let’s decide on our daykill say 4hr before EOD. Then everyone MUST vote for that daykill. If we have a coroner then they inspect the body and we get a full list of roles in play. If we don’t get a full list it’s because there is a psycho trooper in play.

Obv this only works if we have a coroner. But the worst thing that can happen is we kill someone who we would have killed anyway.

Thoughts?

I don't think it will work this way as it's a great way to break the game (this will obviously be followed by a massclaim). And even if it works this way we still have the risk of the Psychotrooper.

The threat of a potential psycho trooper disappears. If for example you are the one-shot governor then of coroner returns a result of ‘mafia one shot governor’ then you know we have psychotropper in play and his power is nerfed. As some roles don’t have a reverse the results of a coroner scan in event of paychotrooper being in play will include some ‘failed’ results which tells Town (and mafia and any Sk) that we have the psycho trooper in play.

It might actually pick out some liars from D1 too. If my discard card (commuter) turns up in coroner scan you know I lied.

[celaph]

Why did you find his point about ghug reasonable? You were scumreading ghug D1. What about Maniac's voting behavior is more scummy than when he voted for his top townread in your first game?

At its core Maniac's argument is that daykilling good town players D1 is usually bad because of the value that they bring. He sees ghug as a good town player and thus not a good DK D1. Yes, I know I scumread ghug D1. That doesn't mean I can't find an argument supporting not killing him to be reasonable. Do you disagree?

I'll answer your question regarding Maniac with my own. What actions could Maniac take that would make you seem him as scummy?

What do you think of that fact that ghug has made this exact same argument multiple games in a row, and yet started out this game by voting me (after he said last game that I was on a list of do-not-kill-early players)?

And I'm not going to answer your second question because I don't see how it possibly be relevant or help solve this game. You're definitely deflecting, and I can honestly think of no town motivation for you to ask me that.

I'm sure you'll be shocked to hear that I was not a fan. It's almost like I scumread the first 47 hours of ghug's D1.

Regarding the Maniac point, let me ask that question in a different way. You've put Maniac as a townlean. Are there specific quirks or details that while scummy are indicative of town Maniac that you see here (any relatively recent Maniac scum games?)? Because otherwise it seems that you've just given him a carte blanche and then gone on to townread him.

To return to your original question, I didn't answer it because I think it was the wrong question to ask. No, I don't think that he's down anything as scummy as voting his top townread, but I'm not convinced that scum Maniac would necessarily do something that scummy.

[damo666]

##call GM:

Can you explain the interactions of killing actions and the paranoid gun owner? Some possible situations:

1) murderer tries to murder gun owner. What happens?
2) strong man tries to strong man gun owner. What happens?
3) hider tries to hide behind gun owner while hider is target for death. What happens?
4) hider tries to hide behind gun owner while gun owner is targeted for death. What happens?

GM NOTES
1: There is no such role as "Murderer" in the deck. Do you mean Serial Killer?
2: Both of them would die.
3: Both of them would die, and so would the person targeting the hider.
4: Both of them would die, and so would the person targeting the Paranoid Gun Owner.

Murder is generic for kill.

Murder is a subset of kill, not a synonym