MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[rdrivera2005]

When I voted Rdrivera, celaph had zero votes. I then asked for a case on celaph because I'd seen nothing of the sort in advance of the flashwagon forming there. Ironically the only person who gave any sort of reasonable point there was Bona; but I didn't really feel that celaph was that different to normal and I also feel that he's been a pretty decent (though not very scary, sorry ghug) player who would be more useful to keep around than lfischl - I didn't like either option though.

As I said at the time, I didn't really disagree with the case on rdrivera and the fact he was acting the same as last game wasn't actually towntell, because in both d1's he essentially did nothing and made no reads. I didn't like going after him based solely on that because that's what I did last game - And I was wrong. But when it came to a point where there were three options (rdrivera, lfischl, and Bunny) then I absolutely preferred rdrivera to the other two. And I still preferred him to celaph, too.

Assuming you also think Rivera is a decent player, why did you prefer Rivera to celaph if you were null on both of them? Why is celaph more useful to keep around than lfischl, but Rivera isn't?

And none of this explains your (fake, imo) outrage that people weren't trying to prevent a tie when you stayed away from the top two wagons for the ten minutes before EOD.

Rdrivera has an unfortunate habit of scumreading me in almost every single game we play, so I don't especially subscribe to that first point

It's quite simple: I was not concerned about there being a possibility of a tie even when the vote was tied by ghug, because it only took one person to break it. When Bona started pulling his shit that equation drastically changed, so I started actively trying to prevent it - As did ghug. I really do not understand why nobody else was sparked into action by that, especially as every single player except for Bozo/Vecna/Macca/rdrivera and apparently Bob was present (And Bob turned up immediately afterward). Two people out of 16 is a pretty pathetic level of engagement and I really can't understand why so many people were happy to coast to a tie there

Sometimes I am right. And I don't always scumread you, this isn't true.

Also, I find scummy to push a last minute wagon on D1 on a player that isn't around (and that can't either defend himself or even claim).

[brainbomb]

I really don't see how my mentioning of discarding the Mafia LRC remotely took the pressure off Bunny there. For most of the day I didn't really look favourably upon outing discards because I felt it just helped scum figure out who the strong PR's are likely to be and that all those Mafia Goon discard claims really told us absolutely fuck all of use. That changed after Bunny's claim because combined with Bozo's it meant we could rule out a significant number of unique Mafia roles: Godfather, Roleblocker, and Loud Role Cop. Given I find it highly unlikely anyone is willingly to pick the Mafia Compulsive Hider, we now had some good information that the (mafia) scumteam is probably pretty small and certainly pretty powerless - Or damo is right and multiple people are actually the role they discarded. Bunny's claim also meant that anyone who got RB'd would've known it was by town (though the JOAT death invalidates that).

No you claimed and then ghug moved off, everyone moved off and any discussion about the legitimacy of bunnys claim was up in smoke, no effort was made to prod him further or to even question if he was lying. And yea I credit you claiming as providing the cause and effect for why everyone else just said “oh okay”

the problem inherent is trusting the discard claims of players who behaved in non forthcoming ways

[ghug]

I really don't see how my mentioning of discarding the Mafia LRC remotely took the pressure off Bunny there. For most of the day I didn't really look favourably upon outing discards because I felt it just helped scum figure out who the strong PR's are likely to be and that all those Mafia Goon discard claims really told us absolutely fuck all of use. That changed after Bunny's claim because combined with Bozo's it meant we could rule out a significant number of unique Mafia roles: Godfather, Roleblocker, and Loud Role Cop. Given I find it highly unlikely anyone is willingly to pick the Mafia Compulsive Hider, we now had some good information that the (mafia) scumteam is probably pretty small and certainly pretty powerless - Or damo is right and multiple people are actually the role they discarded. Bunny's claim also meant that anyone who got RB'd would've known it was by town (though the JOAT death invalidates that).

No you claimed and then ghug moved off, everyone moved off and any discussion about the legitimacy of bunnys claim was up in smoke, no effort was made to prod him further or to even question if he was lying. And yea I credit you claiming as providing the cause and effect for why everyone else just said “oh okay”

I moved off because Bunny claimed his discard

[brainbomb]

Lets say im wrong and bunny is town then scum would probably want this discussion to keep the focus on bunny and you HR.

[brainbomb]

thats why I feel inclined to drop it at this point

[kgray]

I am sorry I missed EOD. I would not have had much of a preference between lfischl and celaph. Approaching EOD it looked like it was VT vs VT, I was surprising to see that lfischl was the JOAT.

celaph came very close to being the DK without claiming anything besides VT, if he is not town he was taking a chance that he would survive when he could have claimed something to survive D1 and forced a CC, or possibly get lucky and claim a town PR that was not dealt.

Bonatogether's voting was supposedly all about forcing ties and making closer wagons, but he violated this 2 times with regard to rdrivera. If rdrivera is scum, Bonatogether could be his partner.

celaph's wagon came up pretty quick, so I would not take him not claiming PR as evidence that he is actually a VT.

You think that bona breaking a tie to put Rivera in the lead makes him likely to be Rivera's partner?

Yes, if rdrivera is scum, he may have deviated from his voting pattern to distance from rdrivera. Then, when rdrivera and celaph were tied, Bonatogether switched his vote from rdrivera to celaph, changing a tie to a 2 vote lead for celaph, despite claiming to be causing ties whenever possible.

celaph was in the lead when he last posted 5 minutes before EOD. He had plenty of time to make a claim if he wanted to make sure he survived D1.

In addition to townreading bona for other reasons, I do not think his votes at EOD can be explained as being deliberate at all (with the exception of him tying it with 2 minutes left). The way he was moving around doesn't feel at all like he was considering how his votes would look with VCA.

And I think celaph's response to being on the block was so different from in M62. In that game, we still had several miskills left, and he was a VT, and he actually fought back and cared and posted his reads. He came out of it super towny. Here, he sort of just waited around and seemed like he was hoping to get out of it. It seemed more like he was afraid to say the wrong thing.

[kgray]

Rdrivera has an unfortunate habit of scumreading me in almost every single game we play, so I don't especially subscribe to that first point

It's quite simple: I was not concerned about there being a possibility of a tie even when the vote was tied by ghug, because it only took one person to break it. When Bona started pulling his shit that equation drastically changed, so I started actively trying to prevent it - As did ghug. I really do not understand why nobody else was sparked into action by that, especially as every single player except for Bozo/Vecna/Macca/rdrivera and apparently Bob was present (And Bob turned up immediately afterward). Two people out of 16 is a pretty pathetic level of engagement and I really can't understand why so many people were happy to coast to a tie there

I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that people were "happy to coast to a tie." I wasn't happy with a tie, but I didn't think that jumping my vote around was going to help. I certainly wasn't a experiencing a "coasting" feeling, and I doubt many people were.

It's also pretty scummy that the only concrete reason you can give for preferring Rivera over celaph (especially in the context of you'd prefer lfischl over celaph, but not lfischl over Rivera) is that Rivera has a habit of scumreading you.

How is this what you took away from what he said?

Which part? He said all that. I'm not gonna go back and quote him unless you point out specifically what you're disagreeing with.

[kgray]

Also, I find scummy to push a last minute wagon on D1 on a player that isn't around (and that can't either defend himself or even claim).

Do you find me scummy, Rivera?

[brainbomb]

I appear to have been totally alone in thinking that bunny claimed as scum there. I dont think a single person agreed with me. So scum is just resigned to bunny actually being town?

[Hamilton Brian]

I hadn't picked up on this before, but I do find that he's condescending to everyone all of the time.

There are elements of Bunny's game where I find them ambiguous. Lots of chatter, some weird games. I could put them in my scum team right now and get a response of "Are you reading the game," and it'd be the same as town or scum. Can't read them.

[brainbomb]

ok so lets talk about EMC being scum this game.

[brainbomb]

ISO and analysis incoming

[ghug]

I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that people were "happy to coast to a tie." I wasn't happy with a tie, but I didn't think that jumping my vote around was going to help. I certainly wasn't a experiencing a "coasting" feeling, and I doubt many people were.

It's also pretty scummy that the only concrete reason you can give for preferring Rivera over celaph (especially in the context of you'd prefer lfischl over celaph, but not lfischl over Rivera) is that Rivera has a habit of scumreading you.

How is this what you took away from what he said?

Which part? He said all that. I'm not gonna go back and quote him unless you point out specifically what you're disagreeing with.

I took it as him disagreeing with the claim that rd was a good player, not a reason for his voting (which as started was that he disliked the wagon less).

He seems to have doubled down though, so I don't know what to think.

[ghug]

I appear to have been totally alone in thinking that bunny claimed as scum there. I dont think a single person agreed with me. So scum is just resigned to bunny actually being town?

I still think it's possible he's scum.

[Hamilton Brian]

I never suggested Bona is scum, I said I townread him more then once I think. I just pointed that I understand why Bunny (that also townread Bona) feel frustrated.
His remorse shows he is understanding what people said.

OK. Just wondered if it would make you move to another conclusion but it doesn't sound like it. Fair enough.

I am still reading from behind but I am assuming you've been asked already your most likely town and your scumreads?

[rdrivera2005]

Also, I find scummy to push a last minute wagon on D1 on a player that isn't around (and that can't either defend himself or even claim).

Do you find me scummy, Rivera?

No. You voted me with 90 minutes to EOD (says the bot) and we interacted a bit on D1. I also didn't find Jasnah vote scummy, she was scumreading me before. I do found lfiscl vote scummy (and he was town). So, it's not a 100% thing. Bona vote is on another category.

[kgray]

I appear to have been totally alone in thinking that bunny claimed as scum there. I dont think a single person agreed with me. So scum is just resigned to bunny actually being town?

I still think it's possible he's scum.

You guys, ghug claimed scum. Let's get him tomorrow.

[rdrivera2005]

I never suggested Bona is scum, I said I townread him more then once I think. I just pointed that I understand why Bunny (that also townread Bona) feel frustrated.
His remorse shows he is understanding what people said.

OK. Just wondered if it would make you move to another conclusion but it doesn't sound like it. Fair enough.

I am still reading from behind but I am assuming you've been asked already your most likely town and your scumreads?

I am struggling with scumreads. I would say Maniac and HR, but it's really a gut feeling.

Townreads: Kgray, Bona, Bunny, Bob and Brain are my top townreads. A lot of Bs.

[Hamilton Brian]

celaph was in the lead when he last posted 5 minutes before EOD. He had plenty of time to make a claim if he wanted to make sure he survived D1.

I guess this gets into making assumptions about intent, but why would town not reveal? What would scum not reveal? I guess the best thing to do would be to ask Celaph why they didn't claim, unless it's an anti-town role? Lie and claim something else, but that has its own risks.

[rdrivera2005]

I appear to have been totally alone in thinking that bunny claimed as scum there. I dont think a single person agreed with me. So scum is just resigned to bunny actually being town?

I still think it's possible he's scum.

You guys, ghug claimed scum. Let's get him tomorrow.

This would be the funniest slip ever, lol.