MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[BobMcBob]

Why do you characterize it as hiding?

I disagree, I think there results so far have been informative.

Mmmmm? Please inform us then, or do something else in the meantime. I highly doubt it's taking all your mental energy to bookkeep that list. You haven't done much of note other than it so far, hence hiding. I'm sure you'll come out tonight with something, but so far you have nothing.

I prefer to see everyone respond first.

I suspected as much. I don't really have a way to push you into giving reads yet. But why aren't you being more proactive about getting people to answer? You seem to be coasting a lot more than normal.

[BobMcBob]

Macca, I see you lurking here. Please start responding to things or giving some substantial posts or reads.

[jasnah]

What about demon seems scummy to you?

I don't think it would help town much to write at this point. I don't have strong scum reads, I don't have concrete information whether or not I'm a PR, and more importantly nobody knows what I find scummy or not. Explicitly declaring it now is just going to make it that much easier for scum to attempt to pocket me.

[DemonRHK]

Through bottom of 50:

Lots of interesting talk more in my wheelhouse.

I'm softening on Bob now. more null than scum.

I was given only town options is what I am willing to divulge currently.

Going to be doing some other stuff, I will keepo posting 5 page updates as I get through them.

[BobMcBob]

You agree their play looks scummy and he has 21 posts.
I don't think that is inactive.
Why the concern about the activity?

The amount of posts isn't the issue, but rather that they make no claims that we can then use as follow up clues, aside from perhaps the whole damo business, but that only tells us about one person.

Ah...so when we suspect someone we should let them live so they can lead us to others? Like cockroaches?

Yeah, and also kill off some good town players in the meantime for useful info

[BobMcBob]

Because either they lurk and we policy kill them for no info (which is essentially giving up) or they talk and develop relationships, whereby we can figure out who is likely/unlikely to be scum or if they're actually town with a crappy d1.

And do you think reading how others interacted with the dead is important?

How far would you take this: would you rather kill an active town with lots of interactions than a lurking scum?

1) Yeah, of course. This is basic strategy.

2) I'm ignoring the bit about alignments since we obviously won't know alignments ahead of time short of PRs. If it was early game (say, <d3), probably the active person, since it gives us more info, but after that probably the lurker, since they're an active hinderance at that point.

What did I tell you lol. No bona, we keep the active townie around, they're more useful in the long run than the info we gain from their death.

[Donny Dude]

What about demon seems scummy to you?

I don't think it would help town much to write at this point. I don't have strong scum reads, I don't have concrete information whether or not I'm a PR, and more importantly nobody knows what I find scummy or not. Explicitly declaring it now is just going to make it that much easier for scum to attempt to pocket me.

That is why I am asking so I can ascertain your thought process. Instead I get this deflection. Any reasoning helps.

[BobMcBob]

Cop, Conspiracy Theorist, Jailor, Mason, Vigilante, Clairvoyant, although I haven't done a full readthrough of the roles yet.

and What if my role is on that list? am I still worth just sacrificing for vca

it'd hurt, but I'd still be more in favor of it than a Macca, lfischl, or Ezio wagon

I agree with Donny and others, bona really rubs me the wrong way with his VCA, competitive wagons and completely counterintuitive daykill opinions. But I kinda townlean him, given what I've heard of his meta and stuff. Just seems misguided/quirky imo.

[BobMcBob]

Im leaning town on you and donny, and I'm not sure that ghug is scum to be honest, and I may switch my vote sometime tommorow morning before EOD.

Did you vote for ghug for any reason besides thinking Vecna had a guilty scan on him?

That was the reason I voted him, nothing else. ##unvote.

Look what you've done vecna. This poor guy...

[Donny Dude]

What about demon seems scummy to you?

I don't think it would help town much to write at this point. I don't have strong scum reads, I don't have concrete information whether or not I'm a PR, and more importantly nobody knows what I find scummy or not. Explicitly declaring it now is just going to make it that much easier for scum to attempt to pocket me.

That is why I am asking so I can ascertain your thought process. Instead I get this deflection. Any reasoning helps.

How do you not know who you are?

[BobMcBob]

@bona, I think you should reconsider your lurker perspective. Usually lurkers aren't going to suddenly start talking and giving us "info" later, so keeping them around does nothing except for get rid of active players who are easier to read just by virtue of them contributing.

Well, I can always stare at Macca intently until they realise I want them to participate more. Like, seriously. (Does that count as out of game communication? idk) But I agree with you, bona, your perspective on lurkers and info flips is not... helpful.

[BobMcBob]

Yeah. Most of the roles I said will only give us one good use (like doc, vigilante, or clairvoyant), are expendable (mason), or miss one scumteam entirely (cop, conspiracy theorist). I think it's fine trading that for good info.

This whole discussion is moot if the people on the block aren't one of those roles.

Please tell me what "good info" we will learn by flipping one of those town PRs you mentioned.

We gain more insight on a ton of interactions that they had today. Preferably we could get someone else who is scum or VT.

If we have one of the roles I mentioned on the block anyways, they should probably claim anyways.

But we don't want to force a claim, because then scum know who to go after. It's always better to dk a scum than a townie, no matter what they are doing otherwise. VCA rarely, if ever, generates enough good info for it to be worth purposefully flipping an active town.

[BobMcBob]

On top of that, in any given mafia game there should always be other info and clues on interactions that we can use to find scum, and keeping active players around generates far more interesting interactions to analyse than killing them and hoping we get data from their flip somehow, especially in a game with two scumteams.

[BobMcBob]

Grammar running away like filthy cash in Vegas, so I am off before I become next HB

Um... emc, please show up a bit more than this, making vague statements about how tired and brain-fried you are. Or at least get some sleep and come back and hit us with something good.

[BobMcBob]

anyway this discussion tells me that bona is new and worth disregarding. thats all Ive taken from this

Turns out this argument with bona has been more of a rabbithole than the massclaim was. I definitely didn't expect that. I personally think that if bona keeps up this attitude, anyone he votes in the first 2-3 days is probably a bad dk unless they obvscummed themselves.

[BobMcBob]

I'm not saying we draw up a list of players now to dk, and I'm not saying "we can't kill lurkers until d4." However, I am saying that putting together dead active player's reads and such is way better than the same for someone who posted 20 messages a day.

Okay. And I'm saying it's easier to tell someone's alignment if they are active than if they are not. And if they're town and they're contributing, then we have extra help solving compared to a lurker who isn't really playing.

A lurker doesn't get us anything alive or dead. An active player gives info while they're alive. So for an extreme and poorly quantized example, say you have 2 lurkers and 2 active players, and the lurkers provide 0 info per day and the active players provide 5 info per day. We have to kill all 4 in the first 4 days.

If we kill the active players the first two days and then the two lurkers, then at the end of 4 days we have 15 infos.

If we kill the lurkers first and then the active players, then at the end of 4 days we have 35 infos.

So clearly we get more information by killing lurkers before active players.

But we're in a situation with 21 people all providing varying amounts of info, and some providing misinformation that might result in negative infos. You could extrapolate, but since we have many active players, we can afford to burn through a couple to info there.

Negative infos don't exist. All interactions can be used and analysed for our benefit.

[BobMcBob]

We gain more insight on a ton of interactions that they had today. Preferably we could get someone else who is scum or VT.

If we have one of the roles I mentioned on the block anyways, they should probably claim anyways.

OK, let me take your statement as given: People with lots of interactions generate intelligence for us to hunt.

This was true last game for sure.

Question: Why not leave them alive to generate MORE interactions? It's hard for them to keep up the rate of content without giving stuff away. We can always go back and reread later.

Because I'm impatient and want to catch scum now.

No you don't. You want to flip active townies until we hit d4 and start analysing.

[BobMcBob]

He's not my strongest read anymore, but his early game seemed less on edge than last game. It seemed more carefree and silly.

Huh. That's not what I expected you to say at all, I didn't think he seemed carefree and silly. I think he seems annoyed and uptight.

Interesting, I think I understand our difference of opinion. Last game he was butting heads with me and Eden day one, and this game with you and brain. I can see why you had an annoyed and uptight read of him now.

Okay, skimming his early game I'm inclined to agree with bunny more, I think he seemed pretty silly, in a way that has made me laugh out loud multiple times. I don't have much experience with ghug but that's the way it came off to me. Most people in the thread seemed more serious and annoyed than him.

[BobMcBob]

Because we don't have enough info to nail several right now.

GAH!

Nope...nope nope nope nope...going to sleep. This is crazy now...

So you agree now?

Nope...nope nope nope nope...I need to stop engaging with this discussion.

[BobMcBob]

kgray, I think your perspective on ghug's attitude may have been skewed because ghug was pushing you. Although I will admit, I don't like that push at all so early on with little substance, that part of his game is mildly concerning.