wD Mafia Master Post

[worcej]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I'm interested in hearing anyone's answer to the following. Please read it with as much earnestness and sincerity as you possibly can something from the internet:

What are your needs, and how are they not currently being met?

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

[ghug]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I'm interested in hearing anyone's answer to the following. Please read it with as much earnestness and sincerity as you possibly can something from the internet:

What are your needs, and how are they not currently being met?

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

I think HR's right that there's too much subtlety and context to write rules ahead of time that won't have unforeseen shortcomings.

A couple of thoughts on how to meet this need. I'd be curious which one(s) you'd find most appealing not because the intent is to strongarm you into one of them but because your role in the past incident gives you unique insight, much as mine gives me on ideas on how to avoid escalation.

• Accept that you'll get public warnings if you cross lines and be ready to apologize, learn, and move on. Obvious downsides here are egg on face and potential for argument if it comes to it, but it's pretty straightforward.

• Wear kid gives around people with whom you have tenuous relationships. I voted for you last game, but I also avoided direct confrontation with you, as did Durga, and I imagine you yourself.

• Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people. Even Vecna has stopped using the L word at this point, so we know we're all capable as a community of just avoiding problematic words. Obviously that's not sufficient to ensure respect, but it's a good starting point.

• Allow the GM to issue warnings privately on condition of pubic apology. Thus maybe leads to behavior people might flag as abnormal, which is problematic in a social deduction game, but it does allow saving face.

Slightly dangerous territory here, but I think the root of what you're missing from my side's argument is the impetus for the use of "bitch". When you called Durga one, or me, or your coworker, you did so because we were acting in ways that you considered "bitchy". Rudeness, complaining, passive-aggressiveness. The history of the term is rooted in association of women with those negative attributes. When Durga called HR and I bitches, it was simply because we were doing something she didn't like. There weren't additional behavioral connotations.

[Jamiet99uk]

Also would someone be willing to run a mini game while we wait for Chaqa's and Eden's non-mafia thing?

No. Not yet. We need to conclude the present discussion before there are any more Mafia games at all. And I am saying that with my Council hat on.

However I think we are moving in the right direction with this discussion so that's good.

[Jamiet99uk]

While I abhor psychobabble, other than MINE... I'll answer, bunny. Even though it will reveal my deep inner insecurities and strange issues.

First, I need to have my self identity as a goldfish acknowledged.

But more seriously, I need to have the position of GM and Council respected. Not ME... but it offended and offends me that the GM and Council in 'that game' were ignored repeatedly.

As the other half of the Council, I concur with this comment and can confirm its veracity.

I think I speak for both Darg and myself when I say that, in all seriousness, the next time something like this happens, if someone is contacted by Dargorygel or myself by PM and told to stop posting about a particular controversy, and they respond by saying "no" to that request and continuing their posts, that person is likely to be banned from playing Mafia for a long time.

[Jamiet99uk]

Now let me comment on the issue of "more rules".

Rules alone are not a magic bullet that solve all problems. However it is worth stressing that the main point of PE's proposal, which I see Hellenic Riot appears to support, and which I am inclined to endorse, does not introduce *new* rules. It simply asks webDip players to adhere to the same rules that already exist across the rest of the site.

So, this is not about "more rules", this is about removing a special "rule" which has been allowed to persist, which effectively says it's ok to be offensive while you're playing Mafia. Clearly that rule has led to unpleasantness and so we should revoke it.

[Maniac]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I'm interested in hearing anyone's answer to the following. Please read it with as much earnestness and sincerity as you possibly can something from the internet:

What are your needs, and how are they not currently being met?

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

I think HR's right that there's too much subtlety and context to write rules ahead of time that won't have unforeseen shortcomings.

A couple of thoughts on how to meet this need. I'd be curious which one(s) you'd find most appealing not because the intent is to strongarm you into one of them but because your role in the past incident gives you unique insight, much as mine gives me on ideas on how to avoid escalation.

• Accept that you'll get public warnings if you cross lines and be ready to apologize, learn, and move on. Obvious downsides here are egg on face and potential for argument if it comes to it, but it's pretty straightforward.

• Wear kid gives around people with whom you have tenuous relationships. I voted for you last game, but I also avoided direct confrontation with you, as did Durga, and I imagine you yourself.

• Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people. Even Vecna has stopped using the L word at this point, so we know we're all capable as a community of just avoiding problematic words. Obviously that's not sufficient to ensure respect, but it's a good starting point.

• Allow the GM to issue warnings privately on condition of pubic apology. Thus maybe leads to behavior people might flag as abnormal, which is problematic in a social deduction game, but it does allow saving face.

Slightly dangerous territory here, but I think the root of what you're missing from my side's argument is the impetus for the use of "bitch". When you called Durga one, or me, or your coworker, you did so because we were acting in ways that you considered "bitchy". Rudeness, complaining, passive-aggressiveness. The history of the term is rooted in association of women with those negative attributes. When Durga called HR and I bitches, it was simply because we were doing something she didn't like. There weren't additional behavioral connotations.

Fair points. But if we aiming for exclusivity how would you explain to say a person on the autistic spectrum who takes things literally that sometimes you use of an insult like bitch is fine and sometimes it isn’t?

[BunnyGo]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I'm interested in hearing anyone's answer to the following. Please read it with as much earnestness and sincerity as you possibly can something from the internet:

What are your needs, and how are they not currently being met?

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

You need guidance on how to behave in this community. The unspoken rules are hard for you to discern and you feel uncertain of when you'll unknowingly harm someone.

[BunnyGo]

While I abhor psychobabble, other than MINE... I'll answer, bunny. Even though it will reveal my deep inner insecurities and strange issues.

First, I need to have my self identity as a goldfish acknowledged.

But more seriously, I need to have the position of GM and Council respected. Not ME... but it offended and offends me that the GM and Council in 'that game' were ignored repeatedly.

As the other half of the Council, I concur with this comment and can confirm its veracity.

I think I speak for both Darg and myself when I say that, in all seriousness, the next time something like this happens, if someone is contacted by Dargorygel or myself by PM and told to stop posting about a particular controversy, and they respond by saying "no" to that request and continuing their posts, that person is likely to be banned from playing Mafia for a long time.

You also have a need that your work be respected. And in particular that people not make your job harder by not responding to your requests.

Question: I was given such a command this last game, but when I stopped responding I was prodded multiple times (by you and others). It is not easy for people to both ignore being prodded and drop a subject. I think I did a good job walking the line. But in many situations where people have high stakes it could be harder. What should they do? (quotes below from the game)

Yeah...but that was when I was caught dead to rights, and it was for a good cause: it changed the main conversation in the thread.

So what's your excuse now for lying about having a Role PM that contained a flavour name?

Not offering one, not confirming nor denying I was lying either. I've been asked to change the topic.

So @celaph, dazzle me some more with your insightful commentary.

Then after this you wrote:

In the first of these two posts you very clearly refer to information "in the PM" about a flavour name. That is a lie. You are a liar. Nobody's Role PM contains their flavour name.

which I went out of my way to ignore and not debate and to post this instead.

I am enjoying a glass of Cabernet and using my air fryer to cook toasted beef raviolis

Sounds awesome. Can you explain what an "air fryer" does? How is it different than holding something over a flame?

Several pages later still:

@Bungo, if you're going to do what you did you should at least follow through imo. Avoiding subject that abruptly seems...hrm

I've been specifically asked to change the topic. What's your read of damo based on? It was pretty quick. I usually can't read him that fast, and I've been scum with him something like 4 or 5 times.

Then after many more pages of *others* not dropping it, I responded more directly:

I guess you weren't around for the game that nearly got ruined twice because of people exploiting sloppy PMs, or the game immediately after it where the GMs from the first game tried to break the game the same way as players.

^ that happened and I'm tired of it. There's a rule against sharing GM communications. The rule can't be internally consistent unless lies Annie GM communications are also illegal. Let's start enforcing.

Pres Eden understands my position on this: the GMs are doing us a favor and facilitating us to play a game. The scum team are doing us a favor and providing us a hunt. The rest of us get to play. And we get to play by the rules. The rules both explicit and implicit have always been that sharing my character name was acceptable and asking you a stupid question repeatedly until you were turned around was acceptable. I and others have now learned things from this. Maybe they've learned something about me.

Maybe we've all learned something about ourselves.

Hope you have a happy 2021.

[BunnyGo]

Oh...that wasn't even the end of it:

Pres Eden understands my position on this: the GMs are doing us a favor and facilitating us to play a game. The scum team are doing us a favor and providing us a hunt. The rest of us get to play. And we get to play by the rules. The rules both explicit and implicit have always been that sharing my character name was acceptable and asking you a stupid question repeatedly until you were turned around was acceptable. I and others have now learned things from this. Maybe they've learned something about me.

Maybe we've all learned something about ourselves.

Hope you have a happy 2021.

Sharing your character name would be acceptable if the GM had sent everyone a character name. The GM did not do this, and therefore what you actually did was to lie about your PMs from the GM in a manner which is extremely distasteful.

Your unrepentant attitude to this is teaching us something about you, for sure.

You think it is unacceptable to mislead people about the rules of the game? How many people here don't read the first page and don't know what the PMs are? How many people don't read the rules? Is it acceptable to mislead them and get a mistake? We praised (name escaping me, my apologies) for recently doing that in another game. It's clearly not against the rules to try and draw someone out for not knowing the details and panicking them. It's not against the rules to lie or mislead about the contents of your role PM. And it's not against the rules to put people on tilt. So again...if town players learned anything about how to win the game here then without breaking the rules I've advanced my win conditions. If no town players have learned anything (and continue not to in the future), then at least I did it early.

[BunnyGo]

ghug and Jamie continued prodding me through page 49.

[Jamiet99uk]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I'm interested in hearing anyone's answer to the following. Please read it with as much earnestness and sincerity as you possibly can something from the internet:

What are your needs, and how are they not currently being met?

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

You need guidance on how to behave in this community. The unspoken rules are hard for you to discern and you feel uncertain of when you'll unknowingly harm someone.

Are you asking Worcej a question or offering him advice here, or what?

[Jamiet99uk]

While I abhor psychobabble, other than MINE... I'll answer, bunny. Even though it will reveal my deep inner insecurities and strange issues.

First, I need to have my self identity as a goldfish acknowledged.

But more seriously, I need to have the position of GM and Council respected. Not ME... but it offended and offends me that the GM and Council in 'that game' were ignored repeatedly.

As the other half of the Council, I concur with this comment and can confirm its veracity.

I think I speak for both Darg and myself when I say that, in all seriousness, the next time something like this happens, if someone is contacted by Dargorygel or myself by PM and told to stop posting about a particular controversy, and they respond by saying "no" to that request and continuing their posts, that person is likely to be banned from playing Mafia for a long time.

You also have a need that your work be respected. And in particular that people not make your job harder by not responding to your requests.

Question: I was given such a command this last game, but when I stopped responding I was prodded multiple times (by you and others). It is not easy for people to both ignore being prodded and drop a subject. I think I did a good job walking the line. But in many situations where people have high stakes it could be harder. What should they do? (quotes below from the game)

In those situations, first of all those theoretical people shouldn't attempt to bend the rules of the game to the point of cheating, which is what happened in the situation you refer to. As a result of that situation we will be tweaking the wording of the current master ruleset.

This, however, is a rather different scenario as it is not about insults / abuse / personal attacks, but a situation regarding observing (or not observing) the general gameplay rules. It's not really what we're talking about in the present discussion.

[BunnyGo]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

You need guidance on how to behave in this community. The unspoken rules are hard for you to discern and you feel uncertain of when you'll unknowingly harm someone.

Are you asking Worcej a question or offering him advice here, or what?

I'm saying that I heard his need. Unlike others who dove right in to offering solutions without once acknowledging the stated need. It helps to explicitly state the need before discussing cause/solution/conflicts with others' needs.

[BunnyGo]

As the other half of the Council, I concur with this comment and can confirm its veracity.

I think I speak for both Darg and myself when I say that, in all seriousness, the next time something like this happens, if someone is contacted by Dargorygel or myself by PM and told to stop posting about a particular controversy, and they respond by saying "no" to that request and continuing their posts, that person is likely to be banned from playing Mafia for a long time.

You also have a need that your work be respected. And in particular that people not make your job harder by not responding to your requests.

Question: I was given such a command this last game, but when I stopped responding I was prodded multiple times (by you and others). It is not easy for people to both ignore being prodded and drop a subject. I think I did a good job walking the line. But in many situations where people have high stakes it could be harder. What should they do? (quotes below from the game)

In those situations, first of all those theoretical people shouldn't attempt to bend the rules of the game to the point of cheating, which is what happened in the situation you refer to. As a result of that situation we will be tweaking the wording of the current master ruleset.

This, however, is a rather different scenario as it is not about insults / abuse / personal attacks, but a situation regarding observing (or not observing) the general gameplay rules. It's not really what we're talking about in the present discussion.

Oh? I think it is exactly the same issue with regard to meeting the need to respect the council/gm and their requests to drop issues.

Player 1: says does something that annoys/offends player 2
Player 2: Responds with anger and malice to player 1
GM: Stop it.
Player 2: Yeah, stop it you jerk.
Player 1: .....

The issue of players not dropping issues when asked to drop them is not so clear cut. If the command is to drop an issue, then as we saw in M62 that may not be enough. People have strong feelings and dropping them may not resolve the situation.

[Jamiet99uk]

@BunnyGo:

Statement A: "That is against the rules of the game of Mafia which are designed to prevent cheating, please don't do that"

Statement B: "You are using insulting / racist / misogynistic language and making personal attacks which are against the usage rules of the WebDiplomacy Forum, please stop."

Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between Statement A and Statement B, seriously?

[BunnyGo]

@BunnyGo:

Statement A: "That is against the rules of the game of Mafia which are designed to prevent cheating, please don't do that"

Statement B: "You are using insulting / racist / misogynistic language and making personal attacks which are against the usage rules of the WebDiplomacy Forum, please stop."

Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between Statement A and Statement B, seriously?

I am telling you that I was contacted by the GMs and specifically told to stop arguing about the rules. Other players did not stop, and called me names in continuing to not stop. This is a hard situation to be in. This would be a harder situation to be in were my alleged crime situation B.

[Jamiet99uk]

@BunnyGo:

Statement A: "That is against the rules of the game of Mafia which are designed to prevent cheating, please don't do that"

Statement B: "You are using insulting / racist / misogynistic language and making personal attacks which are against the usage rules of the WebDiplomacy Forum, please stop."

Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between Statement A and Statement B, seriously?

I am telling you that I was contacted by the GMs and specifically told to stop arguing about the rules. Other players did not stop, and called me names in continuing to not stop. This is a hard situation to be in. This would be a harder situation to be in were my alleged crime situation B.

And in "Situation B", if you were told to stop posting about it, would you understand that you should stop posting about it, and that if you did not immediately do so, there would be further sanctions?

If you are able to answer "yes" to that, then I don't think you'll have a problem.

Again, this is not a discussion about rules violations in general; it is a discussion about personal attacks / insults / unacceptably pejorative or hurtful or bigoted language, in particular.

[Jamiet99uk]

If you want to specifically have a discussion about how the GM or Council should deal with cheating accusations which are not to do with personal attacks and related conduct, we can have that discussion - but please leave it for a little later. The issue of personal attacks / insults / pejorative language is sufficiently important that we need to talk about it without going off on too many tangents.

[BunnyGo]

@BunnyGo:

Statement A: "That is against the rules of the game of Mafia which are designed to prevent cheating, please don't do that"

Statement B: "You are using insulting / racist / misogynistic language and making personal attacks which are against the usage rules of the WebDiplomacy Forum, please stop."

Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between Statement A and Statement B, seriously?

I am telling you that I was contacted by the GMs and specifically told to stop arguing about the rules. Other players did not stop, and called me names in continuing to not stop. This is a hard situation to be in. This would be a harder situation to be in were my alleged crime situation B.

And in "Situation B", if you were told to stop posting about it, would you understand that you should stop posting about it, and that if you did not immediately do so, there would be further sanctions?

If you are able to answer "yes" to that, then I don't think you'll have a problem.

Again, this is not a discussion about rules violations in general; it is a discussion about personal attacks / insults / unacceptably pejorative or hurtful or bigoted language, in particular.

Ah. I heard your need for the GMs to be respected. I had not realized the situation was limited.

[Jamiet99uk]

Again, this is not a discussion about rules violations in general; it is a discussion about personal attacks / insults / unacceptably pejorative or hurtful or bigoted language, in particular.

Ah. I heard your need for the GMs to be respected. I had not realized the situation was limited.

I mean I'd like you to respect me at all times, of course. Hang a photograph of me on your living room wall, if possible, and salute it before bedtime. But also yeah I was talking in the specific context of the present discussion.