MAFIA 63: THE SCOURGE [HIDDEN]

[damo666]

I'm confused with the fly-by Vecna posts claiming to be PR and asking to be NK. Is there a joke somewhere in there that I'm missing entirely? Why?

Typical bad play from Vecna. Ignore it. Probably vt trying to draw the NK but could be PR double bluff or a scum ruse. If he is town, scum will ignore it and so should we.

[Durga]

I'm confused with the fly-by Vecna posts claiming to be PR and asking to be NK. Is there a joke somewhere in there that I'm missing entirely? Why?

Typical bad play from Vecna. Ignore it. Probably vt trying to draw the NK but could be PR double bluff or a scum ruse. If he is town, scum will ignore it and so should we.

Townreading HB for this actually

[Hamilton Brian]

I'm confused with the fly-by Vecna posts claiming to be PR and asking to be NK. Is there a joke somewhere in there that I'm missing entirely? Why?

Typical bad play from Vecna. Ignore it. Probably vt trying to draw the NK but could be PR double bluff or a scum ruse. If he is town, scum will ignore it and so should we.

Then could we conclude that Vecna is town, because why would scum bother with that? Nevermind, my head started to go down a rabbit hole of "what ifs" and your advice about ignoring it seems to be the absolute best idea. Vecna probably goes in the "probably town" pile?

[Jamiet99uk]

I am now going to respond to the chapter of President Eden's thesis in which he throws a whole lot of inaccurate shade at me. I will number my responses given the length of the overall post; I hope that's helpful.

Jamiet99uk

I'm not gonna lie that this is kind of OMGUS, but this guy was clearly around and involved throughout EOD but had absolutely no investment in the outcome whatsoever. He votes ND in the end to break an apparent tie, which is fine enough...

1. Ok so first of all, I note how you're shading me by using the phrase "apparent tie". What is the purpose of the word "apparent" here, other than to cast doubt in the reader's mind about whether or not the vote was *actually* tied when I voted? Let's just be very clear, and everyone can confirm this from the Bot, the vote WAS tied at that moment, and my vote DID break that tie, by putting ND in the lead.

2. If I was scum with "absolutely no investment in the outcome whatsoever" why would I stick my neck out and break the tie?

It feels to me that by claiming I was not invested in an outcome, and adding weasel words like "apparent tie" rather than acknowledging that I did actually break the tie with only two minutes to go, you're trying to paint a false narrative that suggests I was just standing idly around and not getting involved. I think it's clear that the very opposite is true. I sought to break a tie with two minutes to go.

...but his thought process went something like this:

1. Hellenic Riot is suspicious because HR voted Jamie:

##Vote Hellenic Riot because he voted me for no reason and that's very mean of him in this season of goodwill.

(Yes, I realize the tone is facetious, but the vote was still important to getting the HR wagon to have momentum.)

3. My tone is often facetious because I like to be rude to people when I pressure them. It's just my obnoxious attitude. You're right that my vote on HR was genuine, but you're not accurately reflecting the reason I actually gave. HR was not suspicious "because he voted me", he was suspicious because he voted me FOR NO REASON and you even quoted me explaining that, despite failing to acknowledge my stated reasoning with your own words.

2. ND isn't lurking, but is truly absent:

Nonald Dump isn't exactly "lurking". Lurking is being around but not posting. I genuinely think ND went to his Christian Rifle Club meeting and got lost on the way home.

4. I've spoken about this tonight already. Genuine absence is still absence. Absent players are bad for town whatever the reason, and in a Maniac vs ND fight it was still a better idea to remove ND. Look at Yoyoyozo in the last game. I'm sure he was genuinely just an asshole who didn't care about the game, but his absence still harmed town while he was still alive - unfortunately for the scum team (which I was on) he then became such an absentee he got modkilled.

3. Hellenic Riot is fine and rdrivera2005 might be mafia:

##Unvote:

Hellenic Riot is making some effort now. I think he may be right about Rdrivera - he's had incredibly little impact so far.

5. Yes, that's right, Hellenic Riot had responded to my pressure and started to make a useful contribution, in stark contrast to the behaviour he exhibited before I pressure voted him. By drawing attention to this you're basically admitting that I did a useful thing by putting HR under pressure. So, thanks.

[NOTE: At this stage I clearly explain that I was going to shoot HR, but that HR dissuaded me, and that ND would be a bad kill for info, so we should kill Maniac.]

4. Eden is being weird so let's vote Eden:

I am on board.

##Vote President Eden

At this point Jamie should have more or less agreed with everything I was saying about EOD but voted me because "I was being weird," even though I already explained said "weirdness." Shortly after this I vote rdrivera, who Jamie thinks might be mafia, and had Jamie joined, rdrivera might have actually become a real wagon. Instead he camps on town until the end, when he switches to ND:

6. We only have your word for it that you are town.

7. You explained your weirdness, really? It did not seem like that at the time. You made multiple weird posts saying "I'M GONNA DO IT, I'M GONNA DO IT!" as if you'd seen a massive scumslip or you suddently had some huge bombshell you were about to drop. Now you're saying that this huge drumroll was just the precursor to a possible vote on Hellenic Riot that you didn't even cast? Talk about an anti-climax. It's still weird how much you built that up, if that's really your explanation.

8. I did not just vote you for this reason. In fact, it's very strange that in your whole chapter on me, you don't mention my interaction with Chaqa at all. If you go back and re-read it you'll see that as well as expressing concern at your weird antics, I also called out Chaqa for repeatedly hinting that he wanted to vote for you, but never actually doing so. This seemed very suspect to me. Eventually Chaqa did start a wagon on you, and I wanted to see where it went, as well as to see whether Chaqa would stay on board, so I joined. Unfortunately it gained no real momentum. EMC jumped on, but then he jumped off again and it seemed clear you weren't going to take the lead.

5. He votes ND to break the tie:

Ok fine, to break the tie:

##Vote ND

This after Jamie says that ND isn't a lurker so much as nonexistent in the game! Sure, break a tie, but why not try to make a real wagon happen before then?

9. Oh, I'm sorry, so I did actually break the tie? I thought I only broke an "apparent tie". Now you're being clear I did actually break the tie. Interesting change in tone during the course of your own essay.

10. I did try to make a real wagon happen, on you. I townread Maniac. I did not townread ND. I voted for ND to break the tie. I was invested in there not being a tie, contrary to your earlier baseless assertions.

Nothing about Jamie's EOD showed a clear train of thought based on reasonable suspicions. The guy was just fishing for a place to put a vote and not be suspect. Well it didn't work sucker!

11. You are either mistaken or you are deliberately shading me for whatever reason.

This ends my response to President Eden's ramblings.

[Jamiet99uk]

It strikes me as noteworthy that President Eden thinks Chaqa "looks great" for starting a wagon on him, yet I allegedly look scummy despite the fact that I strongly encouraged Chaqa to start that wagon, and I immediately joined it when Chaqa did start it.

[President Eden]

It is annoying how much my style clashes with my townreads' styles.

Since this list is exclusively meant to represent my degrees of suspicion of other players, I'm leaving information-based reasons to shoot out of the list. worcej is a "probably shoot" for informational reasons but a null/"could shoot could not" based on actual participation.

Tier 0: Tom Bombadil, dargorygel, peterlund, President Eden
Tier 1 Don't Shoot: Durga, Chaqa, Hellenic Riot
Tier 2 Don't Shoot Yet: ghug, BunnyGo, brainbomb
Tier 3 Could Shoot, Could Not: worcej, e.m.c^42, aarodactyl, Vecna, damo666, Hamilton Brian, bozotheclown, celaph, DemonRHK
Tier 4 Probably Shoot: Donny Dude, rdrivera2005
Tier 5 FIRE FIRE FIRE!: Jamiet99uk, Bonatogether

Interesting that basically all my unknowns voted Maniac.



While previewing this post, I noticed Jamie's reply. I stopped taking it seriously when he tried to read bad intent into my describing a situation as an "apparent tie" when that is literally what it was. I treated his behavior neutrally and fairly and he is not reciprocating, so I refuse to engage him further. If the people I think are town have questions, then I will be happy to help there, but I foresee any further engagement with Jamie as a waste of my time and everyone's energy.

I think I'll dig into rdrivera and Bona next.

[Chaqa]

##vote Eden

[Jamiet99uk]

It is annoying how much my style clashes with my townreads' styles.

Since this list is exclusively meant to represent my degrees of suspicion of other players, I'm leaving information-based reasons to shoot out of the list. worcej is a "probably shoot" for informational reasons but a null/"could shoot could not" based on actual participation.

Tier 0: Tom Bombadil, dargorygel, peterlund, President Eden
Tier 1 Don't Shoot: Durga, Chaqa, Hellenic Riot
Tier 2 Don't Shoot Yet: ghug, BunnyGo, brainbomb
Tier 3 Could Shoot, Could Not: worcej, e.m.c^42, aarodactyl, Vecna, damo666, Hamilton Brian, bozotheclown, celaph, DemonRHK
Tier 4 Probably Shoot: Donny Dude, rdrivera2005
Tier 5 FIRE FIRE FIRE!: Jamiet99uk, Bonatogether

Interesting that basically all my unknowns voted Maniac.

While previewing this post, I noticed Jamie's reply. I stopped taking it seriously when he tried to read bad intent into my describing a situation as an "apparent tie" when that is literally what it was. I treated his behavior neutrally and fairly and he is not reciprocating, so I refuse to engage him further. If the people I think are town have questions, then I will be happy to help there, but I foresee any further engagement with Jamie as a waste of my time and everyone's energy.

I think I'll dig into rdrivera and Bona next.

Wow.

Fuck you.

[Jamiet99uk]

Seriously Eden if you're going to be that much of a self-righteous prick then I don't know what else to say. I spent over half an hour engaging with your stupid essay in considerable detail and now I think you're just trying to upset me on purpose.

Go fuck yourself.

[Chaqa]

I say we kill him.

I have it on good authority he didn’t want to play anyway

[President Eden]

Well that was quick.

There's not much to rivera. The main thing that sticks out to me is that compared to M62, rivera seems much less interested in finding suspects. I think HR already substantively made this point, but go back and read rivera's brief run in M62 before getting nightkilled n1 -- he was a comparatively low-volume poster, but he was still digging into several people and finding townreads and suspects. He communicated a lot of reads in those relatively few posts. His filter this game is strikingly less impactful.

The same argument applies to Bona, although obviously Bona had a larger filter from being alive longer. You go read Bona's game 1 and you see that despite it being literally his first day of mafia, he is developing reads and reasoning on several players and engaging them on those points. Nothing in his filter this game even comes close to this for example:

I lowkey town read bunny, just off of general nice vibes, talking with celaph, and posting the game guide; ND, for trying to figure things out, even if he comes off as abrasive; teacon, almost entirely based off of post 941; and ghug/brainbomb, for asking about noobs' experience.

I think somethings up with Nep, although the fact that 3 people went after them within 2 minutes weirds me out (posts 111-113). Their explanation didn't sit right with me, but it's too early to call scum or just trying to screw with people.

Jamie's self imposed low posting also doesn't seem right to me - wouldn't it be better to get your thoughts out more? I call this soft scum, since it looks like he's trying to fly under the radar here.

Aarodaytal seems to be eager to get himself proven town, although I'd put that down to being new.

Celaph is trying to avoid pissing anyone off imo, but I think he's solid.

Everyone's sus of kgray seems to be off of meta knowledge, so I have no comment.

Yoyo, bozo, and Chaqa done jack after 2 days [EDITOR: two irl days; this is from day 1], although I would put this as slightly town, cause mafia are the ones who need to prove their non-scumminess, and they need a solid track record to come out on top against actual townies.

The closest is here:

I like celaph and aaro this time around, dislike bunny. Chaqa and Eden need to cool it with the among us talk. Emc is probably town. Brain is doing the same stuff as last time, and ghug is being weird. Durga/Tom/bozo haven't said anything AI, and I don't know Donny or Demon well enough to say anything.

Not being able to +1 things is gonna get me dked cause I can't back up that I'm reading the thread. Calling it now.

You'll see that in M62, there's much more explanation behind the reads. In M63 it's almost all conclusions without rationale.

It's also striking that the first time Bona mentions Maniac at all is when Bona votes Maniac... in a vote post without any explanation.

I have something else I just noticed about this that I'm going to highlight in a separate post, because I want to call attention to it, but it's kind of a wild theory that isn't worth taking as seriously as the rest of this.


Anyway I think both are decent shots here.

[Jamiet99uk]

I say we kill him.

I have it on good authority he didn’t want to play anyway

Huh?

I thought that was you?

[Jamiet99uk]

I need to go and have a cup of tea and not look at this fucking game for a few hours. I'm sorry for swearing but I sat down and took time out of my day to write a detailed response to President Eden and then he immediately throws it in my face and says "oh I've glanced at Jamie's response and I'm going to ignore it".

I'm trying to be a calmer person but that's just fucking insulting. If you're trying to wind me up, Eden, well done.

I might post again before EoD and I might not.

[President Eden]

Seriously Eden if you're going to be that much of a self-righteous prick then I don't know what else to say. I spent over half an hour engaging with your stupid essay in considerable detail and now I think you're just trying to upset me on purpose.

Go fuck yourself.

I'm not. Your responses are ridiculous. You are trying to shade me for describing breaking an apparent tie as breaking an apparent tie, saying that I was trying to cast aspersions on you when nothing in my logic for why you're mafia cared about whether it was truly a tie or not. What you are saying about my post is literally untrue.

And this isn't the first time you have done it with my posts this game. I am making the judgment call that I either ignore your responses, which reek of bad faith to me, or you and I spend pages upon pages unproductively fighting each other and getting to the same conclusion as we started. I think the latter would be terrible for town so I'm not doing it. I am leaving it to my townreads to ask me what I need to respond to, and moving on to better things.

[President Eden]

I'm not trying to rile you up, Jamie. Let me put it another way. I think you're mafia. I think you are misrepresenting what I am saying to advance my opponents' agenda. Why would I continue engaging with you? I'm not going to convince you that you're mafia.

[President Eden]

I have something else I just noticed about this that I'm going to highlight in a separate post, because I want to call attention to it, but it's kind of a wild theory that isn't worth taking as seriously as the rest of this.

Now for this.

...

...

There's more people missing from his one substantive reads catchup post than I thought so it doesn't actually mean what I thought. Sorry!

If you care to read more, continue, but the tldr is there ain't anything here and I messed up.

---

What I was gonna point out was that Bona had a catchup post where he gave reads on about 2/3 of the players, and I thought the distribution of players he read was really weird, because Jamie was missing as an active poster, and a lot of the not-quite-lurking people at the time (rivera, HR, damo, Vecna) were missing as well. It struck me that a lot of the people in the traditional under-the-radar scum range were just left out.

I thought Bona might have slipped and not given reads on his teammates. Inexperienced mafia tend to have a tell where they don't engage with or talk about teammates. But as I'm looking over it now:

- Maniac was missing, and obviously Maniac is town.
- If you expand the "didn't address" criterion to include people who were mentioned but not substantively read -- which is another place you'd expect his teammates to be -- then you have to include myself and Chaqa. I'm town and I think Chaqa is too.

So it probably doesn't really mean anything and I just got too excited that I might have found a slip.

[Donny Dude]

That is an interesting point on Bona Eden.
Someone to look at further for sure .
I see bozo is pushing this theory of his still, but when I read it it does not seem very strong based on an old game and people dropping out.

[bozotheclown]

Is this a low effort attempt to scum read my slot because it happened once before?

Why are you disparaging my post by calling it low effort?

Because it is.

Just because ND once needed to be subbed and was scum does not he is likely to do that again.

Also, you are focusing on facts about ND (someone not in the game anymore) and completely ignoring the other players in the game or how they voted. That is low effort.

1. I did not even notice the similarities to M49 when I voted for ND D1, I happened to notice it when I was looking at M49 for another reason (Maniac's most recent scum game).

2. I am not "completely ignoring the other players in the game or how they voted", but I do not see any significant conclusions to be drawn from the D1 voting yet.

3. ND may not be in the game anymore, but his slot is, so we should not just ignore his D1.

[ghug]

This is the bozo we all know and love

Is it? Because he is making a case because ND once floated out and did so again. One time he was scum, so his slot must be it again?

This is lazy case building and trying to connect a line between over 14 games (aka a long time). If he is doing this now, he better do it again when Durga needs a sub (she dropped out my game as scum) and if bo needs a sub (he dropped out last game and was scum).

He did it both of those times

[ghug]

So no...

Never change webDip... never change...

Absence is a valid reason. Look at Yoyo in the last game.

Choosing one specific example to justify this is poor.

I’ll do the same - Remember SarahK24? She was absent and was town in the 2 games she played.

She was scum with me actually. She got replaced by Chaqa, who was apparently still very killable at that point. It was frustrating.