MAFIA 63: THE SCOURGE [HIDDEN]

[Durga]

It would give townpoints (or more accurately non-scumpoints) to PE, emc and celaph for a start.

No it wouldn't. Why not keep a controversial absent player in the game? I'd never want ND to die as scum he literally flames everyone and is never actually able to solve or at least convince people of anything. Also the replacement is worcej who me and ghug fought quite a bit last game. If I'm scum, I want this slot alive for maximum chaos.

Neither you nor ghug are PE, emc or celaph.

The point is the other three, who I actually largely townread but not for this bizarre reason, would have incentive to save ND regardless of alignment if scum.

[damo666]

No it wouldn't. Why not keep a controversial absent player in the game? I'd never want ND to die as scum he literally flames everyone and is never actually able to solve or at least convince people of anything. Also the replacement is worcej who me and ghug fought quite a bit last game. If I'm scum, I want this slot alive for maximum chaos.

Neither you nor ghug are PE, emc or celaph.

The point is the other three, who I actually largely townread but not for this bizarre reason, would have incentive to save ND regardless of alignment if scum.

Then why were they voting ND in the first place?

[Durga]

Neither you nor ghug are PE, emc or celaph.

The point is the other three, who I actually largely townread but not for this bizarre reason, would have incentive to save ND regardless of alignment if scum.

Then why were they voting ND in the first place?

I thought only celaph did that?

[damo666]

The point is the other three, who I actually largely townread but not for this bizarre reason, would have incentive to save ND regardless of alignment if scum.

Then why were they voting ND in the first place?

I thought only celaph did that?

Good point.

Maybe worcej isn't the best flip tomorrow.

I shall redon my thinking cap.

[worcej]

If you flip town more inferences can be made from the D1 vote and if you flip scum that is clearly helpful (to town).

What specifically will you be able to inference when I flip town?

It would give townpoints (or more accurately non-scumpoints) to PE, emc and celaph for a start.

And who would look scummy?

[worcej]

Hi worcej, I'm prolly shooting you tomorrow for info JSYK, welcome to the game!!!

Go for it. Question is why are you telegraphing having a bullet?

Have you read the setup, Worcej?

Honestly, no lol...

[worcej]

This is the bozo we all know and love

Is it? Because he is making a case because ND once floated out and did so again. One time he was scum, so his slot must be it again?

This is lazy case building and trying to connect a line between over 14 games (aka a long time). If he is doing this now, he better do it again when Durga needs a sub (she dropped out my game as scum) and if bo needs a sub (he dropped out last game and was scum).

Uhhh... Because he pulled out an obscure quote from years ago to make a hilarious observation. I didn't say he was correct, I said it was very much bozo. You're v defensive towards ND despite the fact that all you needed to do was like "yeah he's deadbeat but I'm here now and I'll just prove my towniness with my engagement"

Only for the deflection and not normal style of my own to be labeled as a reason to be flipped too?

Also, I am not defending ND - I am just pointing out bozo’s bad case because it can apply to several people and isn’t really based on the game at hand.

I am being me - pointing out the poor choices and bad cases is my schtick.

[damo666]

What specifically will you be able to inference when I flip town?

It would give townpoints (or more accurately non-scumpoints) to PE, emc and celaph for a start.

And who would look scummy?

Everyone. I've given up on the idea you'd be a value flip anyway.

[worcej]

“Why is that pathetic worcej?” you may ask, well it’s simple: you couldn’t find anything else more particularly scummy from anyone other than the dude that was going to be subbed? The slot is about to be subbed out and you’re going to get a contributing player, so why push for that flip on D1?

I'm glad you're here now to tell us who's scummy right?

I’ll get there - I am not good enough to just solve the case in less than 24 hours of time.

[worcej]

I mean, I guess it can not look good.

But I don’t feel bad saying this: the fact that a guy had 4 posts and no votes and was going to be subbed out was the 2nd highest wagon is pathetic and every town player who pushed for it needs to really reflect on how bad that actually is.

I also want to add, specifically to you bozo, that you are building a case to flip me based on absolutely nothing I can defend or argue against.

What should I do, just roll over and say nothing? I know my alignment and know you’re wrong so I am going to point out how bad of a job you are building this ‘justification’ to vote for me on D2.

All you actually need to do is play the game and scum hunt... It's usually fairly easy to tell if you're town

I am playing the game now. Does it seem like I am not?

[worcej]

What specifically will you be able to inference when I flip town?

It would give townpoints (or more accurately non-scumpoints) to PE, emc and celaph for a start.

No it wouldn't. Why not keep a controversial absent player in the game? I'd never want ND to die as scum he literally flames everyone and is never actually able to solve or at least convince people of anything. Also the replacement is worcej who me and ghug fought quite a bit last game. If I'm scum, I want this slot alive for maximum chaos.

Challenge accepted.

[President Eden]

This is the bozo we all know and love

Is it? Because he is making a case because ND once floated out and did so again. One time he was scum, so his slot must be it again?

This is lazy case building and trying to connect a line between over 14 games (aka a long time). If he is doing this now, he better do it again when Durga needs a sub (she dropped out my game as scum) and if bo needs a sub (he dropped out last game and was scum).

I agree with this.

Bozo seems to be saying "ND had to be subbed out once before and he was scum so that slot must be scum now" which is a terrible, lazy, stupid, bad argument. And before Bozo says otherwise, going back and reading some previous game might take a few moments, but the conclusion Bozo is presenting here is still extremely lazy and of dubious quality.

I am not saying Worcej/ND is town, I am not sure yet, because I think Worcej would respond like this as any alignment - and he has every right to, since Bozo's argument is dreadful.

Therefore I am no closer to knowing Worcej's alignment, seifisnetni nwolcehtozoB fo noicipsus ym tub.

The wagons were tied with like 3 minutes left.

I more mean there wasn't much reason to pile on because he ended up by 3.

Uh, due to people piling on to Maniac at the last second, tho.

Does anyone find it suspicious that ND and Maniac sat there tied for about 10 minutes, but as soon as I moved to ND to ensure there wasn't a tie, Eden, EMC and Celaph all jumped to Maniac? Like the second ND was actually in the lead at EoD, there was a sudden dash onto Maniac instead?

Why would it be suspicious that Maniac would be the last-minute kill unless ND/worcej is mafia? ND/worcej being mafia is a prerequisite to the decision between ND/worcej and Maniac having any weight toward alignment. When you want to shade others you talk like worcej has already flipped mafia, but when your own track record of suspicions is on the line, you're suddenly noncommittal.

Also, you know for a fact that all those votes came in at the last minute, because yours did.
With specific regard to myself, I was on Maniac for most of the day and then moved around a bit at EOD for reactions before returning to Maniac at the end. I explained well before moving back that I thought Maniac would give the best information.
And while I'd also like to hear from emc and celaph as to why their votes broke the way they did, you are arguing in bad faith to say that the late votes were in reaction to you voting ND. All four of our votes were late-breaking and essentially simultaneous. Furthermore, you know you are arguing in bad faith, because you were there when this happened.

[Hamilton Brian]

Honestly, no lol...
[/quote]

Seems to be a relatively common attribute around here.

[Durga]

It would give townpoints (or more accurately non-scumpoints) to PE, emc and celaph for a start.

No it wouldn't. Why not keep a controversial absent player in the game? I'd never want ND to die as scum he literally flames everyone and is never actually able to solve or at least convince people of anything. Also the replacement is worcej who me and ghug fought quite a bit last game. If I'm scum, I want this slot alive for maximum chaos.

Challenge accepted.

I hope the challenge you've accepted is that we're not going to fight this game?

[aarodactyl]

Ahoy. It appears I have six pages to catch up on so I'll do that in the next hour or two.

Glancing at the Bot it's interesting that BunnyGo was one of the most active posters all day and yet suddenly he disappeared right before EoD and there's been no trace of him since...

I can confirm that his kids go to bed at EOD. However, no idea why he hasn’t been around since.

[Hamilton Brian]

@PE, you mentioned the value in the Maniac flip. Do you feel you got the information out if it you were looking for?

How have your tiers changed from the 1st time you posted them?

[President Eden]

@ghug I have a summary of PE's post, but I'd suggest just reading it. It felt very good and imo very towny.

Conclusions/TLDR
- Hellenic Riot very likely town
- If ND is also town then the stagnant ND wagon looks like the safe place for mafia to camp while shading the other wagons, which at least had a relatively high investment level. The Maniac wagon was also fine though, and mostly mafia would just pick whatever is safe and consistent.
- If ND is mafia then the Maniac wagon is where they ended up. Bussing is possible, but we can catch out bussers later when they don't start dying like they should. ND voters are probably town here.
- Demon is fine I was wrong earlier
- Chaqa town
- Jamie, Donny Dude, Bonatogether sus

Townie, sure. But talk about coming to the wrong conclusions. Mafia don't just sit around, it depends on the player. For example, ghug is totally the type to pretend to get something going as scum when there's an easy kill. You just can't make these assumptions.

Sure, so then when I follow this up later I can apply these overarching conclusions to individual players, and have people who know their metagames better decide whether a certain behavior is in line with that metagame. Being away as long as I was will inherently limit my ability to read the group, since I can really only fall back on fundamental heuristics which obviously can be subverted.

It would definitely help to have some help on that. ghug seemed content just to shade me for being wrong, when we don't even know that I am yet. You'll at least combine telling me that I'm wrong with telling me what is right

[President Eden]

@PE, you mentioned the value in the Maniac flip. Do you feel you got the information out if it you were looking for?

How have your tiers changed from the 1st time you posted them?

I don't know yet because I haven't dug into the people involved in that flip yet in detail. Got caught up in a couple of other reads that were centered on EOD, but were tangential to the flip.
I'll update the kill list by EON. Right now I think Jamie is my best shot, Bona is also a good shot. Donny probably too but a bit less.

[worcej]

It would give townpoints (or more accurately non-scumpoints) to PE, emc and celaph for a start.

And who would look scummy?

Everyone. I've given up on the idea you'd be a value flip anyway.

All it took was Durga pointing out your gained information wouldn’t actually be any information?

[worcej]

No it wouldn't. Why not keep a controversial absent player in the game? I'd never want ND to die as scum he literally flames everyone and is never actually able to solve or at least convince people of anything. Also the replacement is worcej who me and ghug fought quite a bit last game. If I'm scum, I want this slot alive for maximum chaos.

Challenge accepted.

I hope the challenge you've accepted is that we're not going to fight this game?

Time will tell.