M62: PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF REVOLUTIONARY MAFIA GAME THREAD!

[Fluminator]

This is when the downside to having 350 pages starts to appear. I have so little desire to reread the game right now.

[Fluminator]

Kgray, why do you think bozo is town?

[Jamiet99uk]

This is when the downside to having 350 pages starts to appear. I have so little desire to reread the game right now.

Not much has happened in the last 8 - 12 hours.

[Fluminator]

Jamiet, was it annoying being bussed by bozo? Or did bozo realize no one would daykill you for being a sub so it was a safe push.

[Maniac]

Maniac since you're here can you talk the through your thought process a bit. Why did you scum read me d1? And then kgray D2?

If you didn't know what was really going on why not just admit that? Why would you think I was manipulating ND or something?

Mate, I’m struggling to remember what happened yesterday. Reads come and go. D1 reads aren’t worth much when we now have so much more info. I’m surprised you were scum reading me D1 and still today tbh.

With regard Kgray I do remember thinking her D1 switch from teacon-bunny-ND was suspicious after teacon flipped. I then changed my mind, but I’m open to thinking she could be scum now.

I’m also in two minds about Chaqa. Sometimes I think his D1 was very good. Sometimes I think he might be pocketing me. Someone then said he likes to bus so maybe D1 doesn’t look so good.

[Fluminator]

Guys I think Bozo is scum.

Do i need to make a case or is it self evident for enough people?

[Jamiet99uk]

Jamiet, was it annoying being bussed by bozo? Or did bozo realize no one would daykill you for being a sub so it was a safe push.

Interacting with Bozo is always annoying regardless of the circumstances.

[ghug]

Guys I think Bozo is scum.

Do i need to make a case or is it self evident for enough people?

Why don't you check bozo's read averages?

[damo666]

Guys I think Bozo is scum.

Do i need to make a case or is it self evident for enough people?

What's your case?

[Durga]

Guys I think Bozo is scum.

Do i need to make a case or is it self evident for enough people?

Honestly I think you might be right

[Fluminator]

Bozo is scum when he doesn't care about his pushes.

The two main signs for this is:
1. How thorough his questioning and analysis is.
2. How much he cares other people are listening.

From mafia 60 -

I was traitor in that game and did not know BunnyGo was scum. I knew it was possible, but no one else was interested in my case on BunnyGo so pushing him was safe.

He's aware when people aren't listening to him and uses to his advantage when scum.

Day 1, all he did was weakly push Jamiet because he was a replacement, even saying no one listened to him last game for doing a similar push.
The only two people who joined in all day were teacon and bunny (lol). He stayed off teacon vs. ND despite being online at eod.

Night 1, bozo almost immediately throws shade on kgray for saving teacon (before we knew teacon was scum I should point out), why did he suddenly think it was scum vs. town after the day was done?

Day 2, he votes kgray for VCA, throws shade on Jamiet for VCA but doesn’t vote him, then votes Balki for VCA. He ends jumping on Hamilton last minute as the town vs. town eod approached an end. (why did he jump on when it was TvT and not TvS.)

Day 3, none of the voting matters much here, but he’s doing very weak research. At least on me where he’s asking questions without actually looking up the answers that are there.
He asks my why I didn’t vote Bunny and Jamiet day 1 if I was scumreading them. He completely missed my post on why I didn’t in day 1 which shows he wasn’t looking that deeply and showing a lack of care. He claims he did see it, but he didn’t correct me when I gave him a wrong answer, and when he saw it he went “this makes you look more suspicious” which is further confirmation it was the first time he was considering it.

So, as far as performance goes, it lines up with his scum meta in not caring overly, and not being worried when people don't listen to him. (This is a guy who fakeclaims cop to get his reads through when he's town, the dude cares)
Ignoring meta, he hasn't done anything townie regarding VCA or actions.

Interaction-wise with confirmed scum:

Jamiet: His entire game has basically been to go against bozo lol. I stumbled upon this gem. Totally forgot Jamiet shaded me for trying to get people to vote Teacon lol. (and then told me to move to bozo which he'd probably know I wouldn't)

I think the main votes are between Maniac, ND, and Teacon. People should start compiling onto one of them

24. Convenient that you pick Teacon, of all the 2-voter wagons. There are seven of them, but of course you pretend that the one your vote happens to be on is the most viable. How about you move to Bozo?

Idk, I think Jamiets interactions with him are NAI. Easily scum theatre, but maybe not. Wifom.

Teacon didn't do much with bozo besides sheep his vote on Jamiet lol.

Bunny also sheeped Bozo's Jamiet vote. Bunny defends bozo from Durga questioning him. Town-bozo used to be really suspicious of people pocketing him, and he's not suspicious of Bunny defending him.

Going through these, it's mostly wifom and probably not reasons to strongly suspect bozo. Scum do seem to be weirdly obsessed with him either going hard against him or defending and sheeping him. Could be framing him I guess.

But the meta case at the start was more my reason for suspecting him.

[kgray]

Kgray, why do you think bozo is town?

Well a lot of it is teacon following his vote, which is admittedly less compelling now that Jamie is scum. And he's doing normal, bozo things. But his survey last night could just be him imitating his town meta and giving himself something to do.

I was thinking that the way he went after me and Balki more than others after teacon's flip was towny because when he was scum before he focused on newer players. But I just looked back and realized he hardly mentioned or interacted with Hamilton or brain at all, and I think town!bozo would have dug into all of the "suspicious" D1 votes.

Really there have been a few things that I'd have expected town!bozo to focus on more, like celaph calling brain BB. And it still bothers me how he wrote off Jamie as tunneling him for ignoring teacon's vote while shading damo and Vecna for the same reason.

And I don't think he's gone back to do any VCA after Bunny and Jamie were outed... He said this after Jamie was caught:

On D1, teacon was leading 5-3 when Jamie voted for ND to make it 5-4, so there was an effort to save teacon. The 3 votes for ND after Jamie were from brainbomb, kgray, and Hamilton. This could have been all town, but it renews my suspicion of kgray's vote, since she moved her vote off of teacon after Jamie voted for ND.

But now he's saying he doesn't scumread me anymore because there's new info. So Bunny flipping is the only new info and he hasn't explained why that makes him think I'm town. Maybe it's just because I don't look like a miskill anymore.

And I think I've just talked myself out of my bozo townread...

[kgray]

Bozo is scum when he doesn't care about his pushes.

The two main signs for this is:
1. How thorough his questioning and analysis is.
2. How much he cares other people are listening.

Another thing I noticed in hindsight in M60 after scum!bozo flipped was that he had a way of brushing off people questioning him. He didn't really want to engage in people questioning his reads, so he did things like agreeing that someone made a good point but didn't actually factor their points into his conclusions. He's been doing similar things this game:

She bussed damo D1 in M1011, I think she could have been trying to distance herself from teacon. She put teacon in contention, but not in the lead.

Given the massive amount of people with two votes on them around then, making teacon the joint second largest wagon and the one with some momentum is pretty significant, and a pretty strange form of distancing if she wasn't prepared to see it through with a full on bus

Yes, I would expect her to see the bus through, but I find the push on BunnyGo to make the vote transition suspect.

He's also spent a lot of time mentioning "possible bussing" without explaining why a push was more likely to be bussing than a normal push either coming from town or coming from scum onto a townie. It just seems too lazy for town!bozo.

[kgray]

@bozo why did worcej flipping town make you change your scumreads from Balki and Flum to Chaqa/bona/damo?

As we have time to kill everyone post their prediction of the remaining scum Famous Five

Here's mine:

Jamie Bunny emc Maniac yoyo

For now I would go with Jamie, BunnyGo, Balki, Fluminator, worcej.

I am starting to believe the remaining scum are going to turn to be something like damo, Bonatogether, and Chaqa.

You have not given any explanation for this last group of people.

[bozotheclown]

@bozo why did worcej flipping town make you change your scumreads from Balki and Flum to Chaqa/bona/damo?

As we have time to kill everyone post their prediction of the remaining scum Famous Five

Here's mine:

Jamie Bunny emc Maniac yoyo

For now I would go with Jamie, BunnyGo, Balki, Fluminator, worcej.

I am starting to believe the remaining scum are going to turn to be something like damo, Bonatogether, and Chaqa.

You have not given any explanation for this last group of people.

Balki and Fluminator looked more like town in responsing to Durga's claim, while damo, Bonatogether, and Chaqa have dropped to the bottom of my list by POE. Fluminator is moving down my list again for the way he suspected all of the revealed scum without ever voting for them.

[ghug]

uclabb

reads

D1:
-I started doing this and then realized Jamie was bo at the start and now I feel silly
-bunny says he'd screw Vecna, murder bo, and marry kgray
-bo appears to only be interacting with worcej
-Flum says bo is scum (lol)
-Vecna on bo re comments on worcej:

This is strange.

This, on some level, is the classic alignment knowledge slip

But Bo doesnt seem to want to let people know he thinks Worcej is town here

Gives him a scumread a few posts later too.
-bo gets replaced. I'm gonna finish the bo search and swtich to Jamie, so this'll be a bit out of order.
-Flum says he doesn't want to kill bo or Bunny despite being scumreads because they're active. Vecna questions him on this. (points towards Flum and Vecna not both being scum, I think)
-bozo makes the sub argument and votes Jamie
-Jamie's first big post talks to Vecna and brain about reads. Susses Bunny for attacking him on entrance after bo had accused bunny of being scum.
-I note that bo was scum the last time he subbed out. kgray finds it odd that bozo didn't mention it. HR spoils the fun by revealing it was because he was sent the god thread.
[on to Jamie]
-Bunny does the whole "commies in the role PM" thing
- Some early reads from Jamie:

Initial townleans on Celaph, Brainbomb, Vecna, ND.

Initial scumreads on Fluminator and perhaps Worcej - I notice he's the top poster but goodness me the signal-to-noise ratio in his posts is low, which bothers me somewhat.

The Neph-Balki exchange seemed interesting to me too.

Does he avoid mentioning any teammates here? Probably not.
-Questions Maniac for voting brainbomb for talking too much when others (worcej, Vecna) have talked more.
-Argues with Vecna a little on whether the post limit thing caused us to lose last game.
-Damo says Jamie would probably obvtown soon enough. I remember someone calling him out for "knowing" Jamie was town, which is dumb, but probably makes that person look good. I don't remember if damo ever decided Jamie was obvtowning or scum.
-Oh apparently Jamie called him out for knowing his alignment. :/
-Jamie voted bozo for being lazy and inactive before bozo voted Jamie for subbing in.
-Vecna thinks Jamie questioning damo about knowing his alignment is the first Jamie post that doesn't align with his scum meta.
-Jamie clarifies that the Neph-Balki interaction gives him townleans on both of them.
-Ah, Maniac was the other person who suspected damo for the obvtown comment. Sadly I think Maniac is the sort to fake things like that. NAI
-Bona posts reads. Townreads bunny. Doesn't like Jamie's posting limits. Neph bad, aaro hedge, celaph hedge, kgray hedge, slight town on lurkers (Yoyo, bozo, chaqa). I don't think new scum gives reads where only three of them are of substance and two of those are on teammates.
-kgray doesn't like Jamie's post limit. ghug does. This inspires Vecna to ask ghug if he has a solid read on the slot.
-Jamie talks to brain, spars with bunny about the PM thing.
-Vecna scumreads Jamie for the forced gimmick of post limits, which is odd because he did it last game as town.
-HR asks Jamie for his thoughts on emc, as someone who's always full of thoughts on emc.
-Chaqa "Like I said, I didn't read pages 2 to 60 or so. No one strikes me off yet, besides Bunny giving me mild town vibes. I should be able to get solid reads on EMC, ghug, Durga, and Jamie given soem more time."
-Jamie yells at bozo, new reads:

I would vote for Bozotheclown, Yoyoyozotheclown, Vashta the Neurotic Clown, Make ND Great Again, BunnyGo, or EMC today, based on my current thinking.

I am inclined to townread Balki, Durga, Bonatogether and Celaph. Possibly Brainbomb too.

In a vacuum this would make me like celaph less, but since it was a slip triggered by bunny that got him this townread, maybe I like him more?
-Bunny votes Jamie.
-Jamie gets pissd off about bozo''s dark mode explanation for his white text
-Questions brain's naked vote of Maniac.
-To Bunny:

11. Did you mean to remove your vote for me?

If you did, thanks I guess, but I don't think you did mean to remove your vote - and I'd rather you answer me about why you and Bozo are conspiring to create a wagon on me for utterly shit reasons. Thanks very much.

-Notes Yoyo's headed for replacement.
-teacon jumps on the Jamie wagon.
-Bunny shades teacon's vote for Jamie, despite the fact that he himself is voting for Jamie.
-Jamie wastes a post asking Flum if he's played mafia before.
-Jamie uses another post to question brain's Maniac vote again. I'm kinda townleaning Maniac for this. Twice is a lot.
-Durga asks Jamie to respond to bozo's "communist" theory. Bunny says "He already did when I first brought it up. Just let it go." he doesn't seem to want this to become a focus.
-Jamie townleans Maniac.
-Jamie doesn't like having nine two-vote wagons.
-Lots of Jamie insulting bozo.
-Jamie is concerned about the modkills. Probably NAI or he'd do it privately.
-Jamie wants to wagon Yoyo.
-To brainbomb:

30. You literally said you created it ​at random.

Now you're trying to claim credit for jumping off? That's highly suspect in my book. I encourage everyone to write ​that down.

This is my final post (other than votes) for D1. If the Yoyo wagon doesn't get moving shortly I will join another main wagon. But I do think killing a lurker D1 remains a great strategy in general. Come on people get on Yoyo.

More townpoints for Maniac.
-Votes ND to save teacon.
-celaph doesn't like teacon's vote on Jamie. Maybe doesn't call as much attention to it if they're both scum.

Macro D1 thoughts: I like bona and Maniac more, vecna and celaph a little more, bozo a little less.

N1:
-Jamie analyzes the day:

I told you we should have killed Yoyo or Bozo.

So was that a TvTvT EoD or was someone saved? If so, was it Maniac or Teacon?

-Really smart handsome guy who isn't Balki says "If teacon is scum: Jamie and brain look bad. kgray switched off, but helped make him a wagon in the first place, so she's probably ok. Hamilton cast a key vote for ND, but also moved off Maniac to put teacon in the lead at one point."
-Bona weighs in on Jamie's scumslip (doesn't buy that it's a scumslip).
-Vecna scumreads Jamie again.
-damo "a) your prerogative but the explanation is true. Jamie interestingly hasn't obvtowned to his usual obvtowning standard yet. A bit early yet I guess but watching that slot." So at least he's consistent in watching for this. I don't think this is town points, but not doing it would be scum points.
-Jamie defends not jumping on teacon by shading Bunny. Insists he'll start a wagon on Yoyo tomorrow and encourages Flum to join him. (Flum/Yoyo less likely as teammates)
-I recommend that the vig shoot Yoyo, Vash, Chaqa, Maniac, or teacon. Jamie likes the list but wants to add bozo.
-Jamie's EON reads

Fellow Communists - if I die please avenge my memory by raising the people's flag high, and crushing Bozo or Yoyo, and/or try to get to the bottom of whether Maniac or Teacon was saved? BunnyGo is still possible scum in my eyes.

I townread Vecna, Kgray, Durga and Brainbomb, and possibly Celaph.

Also I do not see why Brainbomb thinks Damo is super #1 megatown, he's still a null for me.

Dunno what to make of these. Does he only townread town?
-HR drops a nice hedgy townread on him at EoN

Not much N1. Seems to really want bozo and Yoyo dead. I doubt he''d bus both of them while also townreding Bunny. Notable that the celaph townread is waning, but I'm not sure what to think of that yet.

D2:
-Jamie opens ready to say Maniac isn't scum because of teacon's flip. Probably town points for Maniac.
-Votes for Yoyo.
-HR posts EoD analysis. Townreads Chaqa. Scumreads Balki, brain, and kgray, but not Jamie. Don't like that.
-bozo analyzes EoD. Thinks therew's scum in kgray, Hamilton, Jamie, and brainbomb. Votes kgray.
-Jamie asks Flum for a Yoyo vote again. I'm starting to think this reflects well on Flum.
-Bona analyzes teacon. Doesn't think Jamie is clear for teacon's D1 vote on him.
-Flum joins Jamie on Yoyo.
-Vecna moves to townreading Jamie.
-Jamie questions Vecna some on not making his vote count D1.
-Chaqa comes in and votes Jamie because he thinks Bunny parked his vote on a scum teammate
-Aaro comes in and shades by name everyone that might have protected teacon (including Jamie) and everyone who ended wasting their votes. He likes Vash, HR, and Chaqa for the timing of their votes, but for some reason not Bunny. He then says he only townreads Vashta, and scumreads Balki, celaph, HB, and kgray. Don't particularly like this post.
-Jamie wakes up and whines about Yoyo. Starts shading Chaqa. I'm reading all of this as harping on lurking because he knows all incarnations of Jamie dislike lurkers, so it's easier to fake town emotion. Probably doesn't say all that much about their alignments, but slight town points for all of them.
-Townreads kgray for questioning his townread on her. I keep ignoring interactions with dead townies and honestly I'm starting to do the same things with the kgray interactions.
-damo townreads Jamie.
-New reads

------------
SOLID TOWNS
------------
Jamiet99uk
Kgray
Vecna
​Durga
Celaph
------------
LEANING TOWN
------------
Fluminator
Damo666
Hamilto​n Brian
BunnyGo
Aarodactyl

"WON'T VOTE" LINE

------------
NULLS
------------
Ghug
​Brainbomb
Balki
Bonatogether
worcej
Nephthy​s
------------
LEANING SCUM
------------
EMC
Maniac
VashtaNeurotic
​Chaqatheclown
------------
STRONG SCUMS
------------
Bozotheclown
Yoyoyozotheclown
​
Keen observers will note that Brainbomb has trended downwards from a townread to a null, while BunnyGo had trended to a townlean from a scumlean. Some people (Hi Balki!) will criticise me for putting three lurkers in my six scumreads, but I refer you to my previous comments on lurking being scum-indicative.

For Durga's benefit I have grouped these in alphabetical order. Each group within the list is not ranked (for example I'm not suggesting Ghug is more null than Worcej.

Groups are great. This feels bad for Balki or Bona. Probably not more than two scum in the townlean group, so only one of Flum/damo/aaro. Probably at least one scum in the scum groups, which again looks bad for bozo.
-Jamie seems pissed off that Chaqa has caught him, which is a pretty reasonable reacton.
-Jamie does a big reread on Maniac. He has a "scumlean" now. This feels like an opportunistic look for a place to push, and an excuse to inaccurately analyze the D1 wagons, not a bus.
-HR buys the argument that teacon wouldn't follow bozo onto Jamie as scum, but notes that it's less compelling if Jamie's scum and they were bussing.
-bozo thinks Jamie's lost in the tunnel if he's town.
-Maniac puts Jamie in his giant scumpool.
-Vecna says something weird about Jamie and Balki being the only players who could pull one over on us.
-Aaro rereads the beginning of the game and gives new reads.

town
-brain (going back and reading, I agree with a lot of their reads and they are in line what has happened since).
-vash (based only on voting)
-kgray (I don't feel strongly about the their voting record after looking back at the posts. Also rdr seems to think they were town, and they seemed to have good d1 reads)

Scum
-bunny (he's done a lot of things that I am suspicious of. Including the QT thing with Cel and the weird interaction with trying to get jamie to scumslip. I'm still not sure about this read though)
-HB (I sussed them yesterday for their reaction to the QT thing and also for voting for ND. Their D1 posting was mostly casual talk and then pushing the ND wagon. Also I don't like their reads from day 68)
-Balki (I still think they're likely scum based on their voting. However not enough to jump on that wagon yet)

I'm going to jump on the HB wagon for now since it's my strongest feeling. I'm very open to switching though.

The organic progression here makes the last post look a little better, as does mentioning bunny at all. I still don't like it overall though.
-Jamie tries to start a wagon on Maniac over his shitty reads. HB is way in the lead here, but Balki and kgray are tied for second, so it could be an attempt to protect either of them.

D2 macro thoughts: HR worse, Flum better. Bozo worse. Maniac better. aaro a little worse.

I'm bored. More sometime.

[ghug]

@bozo why did worcej flipping town make you change your scumreads from Balki and Flum to Chaqa/bona/damo?

For now I would go with Jamie, BunnyGo, Balki, Fluminator, worcej.

I am starting to believe the remaining scum are going to turn to be something like damo, Bonatogether, and Chaqa.

You have not given any explanation for this last group of people.

Balki and Fluminator looked more like town in responsing to Durga's claim, while damo, Bonatogether, and Chaqa have dropped to the bottom of my list by POE. Fluminator is moving down my list again for the way he suspected all of the revealed scum without ever voting for them.

Why is this an argument for scumreading Flum but not Vecna?

[Fluminator]

sorry is that uclabb's reads?
I'm confused

[ghug]

sorry is that uclabb's reads?
I'm confused

That's a bad joke nobody will get. I reread Jamie.

[Durga]

Well, I will say that I think it's unlikely scum!ghug puts this much effort into a reread. Honestly probably town