M62: PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF REVOLUTIONARY MAFIA GAME THREAD!

[bozotheclown]

Do you not think that kgray's later change is somewhat mitigated by the fact she was the one who really put teacon on the table as a lead wagon in the first place?

She bussed damo D1 in M1011, I think she could have been trying to distance herself from teacon. She put teacon in contention, but not in the lead.

Yeah and I was gonna sit on damo's wagon and watch him hang if he didn't come back and save himself at the last minute. Not really the same thing.

I am not sure this has the same connotation as what you said in M60:

Depends on the person. If worcej or Bunny were being obvscum I'd bus them into the ground in a heartbeat

Where does bussing damo in M1011 fall in this range?

Well when I first started bussing damo that game I didn't think he'd take off as a real wagon but I also didn't want to draw attention to myself by unvoting him when he was in danger. Then when he survived the first day, I did what I could to back off of him and only voted for him again when it was obvious that he was scum.

I'm not saying I wouldn't bus summit here. But I don't think I would have been the second serious vote on him so early and then pressured him all day. But like I said, you can disagree. I'm not really trying to convince anyone with this.

[ghug]

@kgray, assuming ghug confirms my paraphrase, what do you think of all that?

(1) I've played only once with scum!ghug (M60) but he was my strongest townread until ~D6 and I let him pocket the shit out of me, so yeah I think scum!ghug does play like a townie.

(2) Flum did correctly scumread ghug for most of that game, though, so I don't think Flum necessarily thinks scum!ghug plays like a townie.

(3) I don't think ghug voting ND is a huge towntell even though ND would be good for scum to keep around because I think scum!ghug would prioritize blending in and getting towncred over keeping around someone who was bad for town.

But I guess overall even if I knew ghug was town I wouldn't see how this indicates that Flum is scum. Flum scumread town!ghug for most of D1 last game.

Good thoughts.

I’m not so interested in what this says about Flum’s alignment. I’m interested in what it says about ghug’s alignment.

I think ghug is very hard to read. I think ghug is aware of how hard to read he is. It is therefore shocking to me that town!ghug would try to read anyone based on them not townreading him by early Day 2.

It's not anyone, it's just Flum, and I didn't mind him incorrectly scumreading me last game for better reasons. It's easier to analyze the motivations for people's thoughts when you know whether they're right or not. You scumreading me in a vacuum for this, for example, isn't scummy. Finding an excuse to OMGUS me rather than just OMGUSing me might be. Focusing on a single thing I'm doing rather than analyzing teacon definitely is.

[ghug]

I think ghug is very hard to read. I think ghug is aware of how hard to read he is. It is therefore shocking to me that town!ghug would try to read anyone based on them not townreading him by early Day 2.

Yes I agree that he's hard to read, but I'm not sure if he thinks he is? Last game as town, he strongly townread scum!Chaqa and Chaqa was insistent that ghug was town. Several people mentioned that there wasn't a towny explanation for why Chaqa would townread ghug so much, but town!ghug wasn't suspicious of it at all.

I'm not convinced that ghug thinking his alignment is obvious to others is scummy.

I thought scum Chaqa wouldn't buddy me so boldly, because I usually don't take kindly to it. Chaqa's also always had a significant amount of misplaced confidence in his ability to read me, so it tracks. Thanks for reminding me

[Balki Bartokomous]

Voting for me based on one read I have rather than drawing any wider conclusions from the scum flip is not a good look.

Why is it not a good look? Why do my scum reads have to come from the flip? And do you think the point I am making is insincere?

You are telling me a story that I just don’t understand. It doesn’t make sense to me that you would consider yourself so easy for Flum to read by early Day 2 that you’re drawing conclusions about Flum’s alignment based on his read on you.

@Flum, can you talk about this mess at some point? I need a sanity check.

[bozotheclown]

Incidentally, @bozo, what is the reason for your vote?

I find it hard to believe you thought there was any chance of getting Hamilton DKed with 4 minutes left, or that you did not give up on trying to get him DKed until there was 1 minute left. That makes your vote for Hamilton when ND and teacon were tied at 5 suspicious.

[kgray]

I think ghug is very hard to read. I think ghug is aware of how hard to read he is. It is therefore shocking to me that town!ghug would try to read anyone based on them not townreading him by early Day 2.

Yes I agree that he's hard to read, but I'm not sure if he thinks he is? Last game as town, he strongly townread scum!Chaqa and Chaqa was insistent that ghug was town. Several people mentioned that there wasn't a towny explanation for why Chaqa would townread ghug so much, but town!ghug wasn't suspicious of it at all.

I'm not convinced that ghug thinking his alignment is obvious to others is scummy.

I thought scum!Chaqa wouldn't buddy me so boldly, because I usually don't take kindly to it. Chaqa's also always had a significant amount of misplaced confidence in his ability to read me, so it tracks. Thanks for reminding me

Fixed this for you, and I'm just returning the favor

[Balki Bartokomous]

Incidentally, @bozo, what is the reason for your vote?

I find it hard to believe you thought there was any chance of getting Hamilton DKed with 4 minutes left, or that you did not give up on trying to get him DKed until there was 1 minute left. That makes your vote for Hamilton when ND and teacon were tied at 5 suspicious.

Suspicious why? What was my scum motivation?

[ghug]

Voting for me based on one read I have rather than drawing any wider conclusions from the scum flip is not a good look.

Why is it not a good look? Why do my scum reads have to come from the flip? And do you think the point I am making is insincere?

You are telling me a story that I just don’t understand. It doesn’t make sense to me that you would consider yourself so easy for Flum to read by early Day 2 that you’re drawing conclusions about Flum’s alignment based on his read on you.

@Flum, can you talk about this mess at some point? I need a sanity check.

Right, I believe the middle paragraph here is your true take on the situation. I find it suspicious that you chose to latch onto something in the conversation that had nothing to do with teacon to focus your single scumread rather than diving into information that the flip provides. I'm an excellent target for this, as I love to talk about myself at great length.

How has your view of the game changed with teacon's death?

[ghug]

Yes I agree that he's hard to read, but I'm not sure if he thinks he is? Last game as town, he strongly townread scum!Chaqa and Chaqa was insistent that ghug was town. Several people mentioned that there wasn't a towny explanation for why Chaqa would townread ghug so much, but town!ghug wasn't suspicious of it at all.

I'm not convinced that ghug thinking his alignment is obvious to others is scummy.

I thought scum!Chaqa wouldn't buddy me so boldly, because I usually don't take kindly to it. Chaqa's also always had a significant amount of misplaced confidence in his ability to read me, so it tracks. Thanks for reminding me

Fixed this for you, and I'm just returning the favor

Typical greatest lakes behavior right here.

[kgray]

Why do my scum reads have to come from the flip?

There's no way you don't think teacon's flip should affect your reads. Last game we played together you spent all of your energy trying to get people to analyze VCA and interactions once scum flipped. You were stoked that town got a source of information. You not using that now *is* scummy.

[bozotheclown]

Voting for me based on one read I have rather than drawing any wider conclusions from the scum flip is not a good look.

Why is it not a good look? Why do my scum reads have to come from the flip? And do you think the point I am making is insincere?

You are telling me a story that I just don’t understand. It doesn’t make sense to me that you would consider yourself so easy for Flum to read by early Day 2 that you’re drawing conclusions about Flum’s alignment based on his read on you.

@Flum, can you talk about this mess at some point? I need a sanity check.

What I do not like about your vote for ghug is that you are taking your vote off of Hamilton when you finally have him as a real wagon. If you had a strong scum read of Hamilton before he helped save teacon by voting for ND at EOD, I would think you would be pushing Hamilton hard for the DK today.

[Balki Bartokomous]

@Bozo, I need you to spell this out in as much detail as you can please.

My voting pattern, as I recall:

- Early voter for Hamilton Brian.
- switched to Bunny for a few minutes after kgray asked for a wagon to develop there.
- When the Bunny thing went nowhere, I moved back to Hamilton Brian, my only scumread of the day.
- And then to teacon with about 1 minute to go when it was clear that ND or teacon would be voted out.

So, what is suspicious and why?

[kgray]

Typical greatest lakes behavior right here.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Why do my scum reads have to come from the flip?

There's no way you don't think teacon's flip should affect your reads. Last game we played together you spent all of your energy trying to get people to analyze VCA and interactions once scum flipped. You were stoked that town got a source of information. You not using that now *is* scummy.

Of course. The teacon flip is a great source of information.

Who said that teacon’s flip shouldn’t affect my reads?

[bozotheclown]

Incidentally, @bozo, what is the reason for your vote?

I find it hard to believe you thought there was any chance of getting Hamilton DKed with 4 minutes left, or that you did not give up on trying to get him DKed until there was 1 minute left. That makes your vote for Hamilton when ND and teacon were tied at 5 suspicious.

Suspicious why? What was my scum motivation?

It looks like you were avoiding voting for ND or teacon, and as scum you would not want to appear to be saving teacon and you would not want teacon to be the DK.

[kgray]

@Bozo, I need you to spell this out in as much detail as you can please.

My voting pattern, as I recall:

- Early voter for Hamilton Brian.
- switched to Bunny for a few minutes after kgray asked for a wagon to develop there.
- When the Bunny thing went nowhere, I moved back to Hamilton Brian, my only scumread of the day.
- And then to teacon with about 1 minute to go when it was clear that ND or teacon would be voted out.

So, what is suspicious and why?

This part, because if a two-person wagon wasn't getting traction, why would you think a single-person wagon would take off even later in the day? It was already clear at that part that ND or teacon would be voted out.

[Balki Bartokomous]

What I do not like about your vote for ghug is that you are taking your vote off of Hamilton when you finally have him as a real wagon. If you had a strong scum read of Hamilton before he helped save teacon by voting for ND at EOD, I would think you would be pushing Hamilton hard for the DK today.

I am pushing Hamilton for the DK today. I only have one vote!

You’re saying that I need to have my vote on Hamilton all day today or else it doesn’t look like I sincerely think he’s scum?

Is that the reason you are voting for me?

[kgray]

Why do my scum reads have to come from the flip?

There's no way you don't think teacon's flip should affect your reads. Last game we played together you spent all of your energy trying to get people to analyze VCA and interactions once scum flipped. You were stoked that town got a source of information. You not using that now *is* scummy.

Of course. The teacon flip is a great source of information.

Who said that teacon’s flip shouldn’t affect my reads?

Um. You just said "why do my scum reads have to come from the flip?" It *should* affect your reads, but it doesn't seem like you're as excited about catching scum and using that to figure out the game as you were last time.

[bozotheclown]

@Bozo, I need you to spell this out in as much detail as you can please.

My voting pattern, as I recall:

- Early voter for Hamilton Brian.
- switched to Bunny for a few minutes after kgray asked for a wagon to develop there.
- When the Bunny thing went nowhere, I moved back to Hamilton Brian, my only scumread of the day.
- And then to teacon with about 1 minute to go when it was clear that ND or teacon would be voted out.

So, what is suspicious and why?

I think it was clear that ND or teacon would be voted out at 4 minutes when you voted for Hamilton, or at least ND, teacon, or Maniac, and that there was no chance of getting Hamilton voted out. ND and teacon were tied at 5 when you voted for Hamilton, so you had the opportunity to place a tie breaking vote, and you passed on that opportunity.

[Balki Bartokomous]

I find it hard to believe you thought there was any chance of getting Hamilton DKed with 4 minutes left, or that you did not give up on trying to get him DKed until there was 1 minute left. That makes your vote for Hamilton when ND and teacon were tied at 5 suspicious.

Suspicious why? What was my scum motivation?

It looks like you were avoiding voting for ND or teacon, and as scum you would not want to appear to be saving teacon and you would not want teacon to be the DK.

1. Okay, compare that to Town!Balki’s explanation. Do you think a credible reason for me switching back to HB might be that I thought he was most likely to flip scum, and I didn’t feel very strongly about teacon, and then I decided, “well, better to make my vote count”...
2. If I wanted to avoid voting for ND or teacon...I could have simply not voted for ND or teacon, right?