M62: PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF REVOLUTIONARY MAFIA GAME THREAD!

[kgray]

Why would you lie 'bout something dumb like that?

You mean why would emc go back and +1 your post later if he'd read it previously? That's not what I'm saying happened. I'm saying townreading him because he didn't read the thread at night is silly.

You think a scum player that bothered to be involved during the day would not bother to read the thread all night?

Li'l Jon, he always tells the truth.

I think you're finding really weird and small reasons to townread emc and not doing that with other people.

[ghug]

You mean why would emc go back and +1 your post later if he'd read it previously? That's not what I'm saying happened. I'm saying townreading him because he didn't read the thread at night is silly.

You think a scum player that bothered to be involved during the day would not bother to read the thread all night?

Li'l Jon, he always tells the truth.

I think you're finding really weird and small reasons to townread emc and not doing that with other people.

I did the same thing with a single post from Durga. I've expressed a townread on Jamie because of the communist PM hullabaloo. It's how I roll.

[kgray]

You think a scum player that bothered to be involved during the day would not bother to read the thread all night?

Li'l Jon, he always tells the truth.

I think you're finding really weird and small reasons to townread emc and not doing that with other people.

I did the same thing with a single post from Durga. I've expressed a townread on Jamie because of the communist PM hullabaloo. It's how I roll.

Okay about Durga, but the Jamie communist scenario isn't the same thing.

[Maniac]

@Balki you should try to say "daykill" or something

I’m sorry. I think of daykill as a day vig shot. I’m trying to adjust. Haven’t played since the vernacular changed. I’ll try to do better.

If you’re playing on your phone use the text replace setting.

[ghug]

I think you're finding really weird and small reasons to townread emc and not doing that with other people.

I did the same thing with a single post from Durga. I've expressed a townread on Jamie because of the communist PM hullabaloo. It's how I roll.

Okay about Durga, but the Jamie communist scenario isn't the same thing.

Scumreading him isn't. Townreading him because I don't think scum Jamie wouldn't go back, look at the town PM, and confirm whether it said communist is pretty comparable.

[celaph]

This gives us plenty to work on now

What do you make of this new info? Has your read of Durga changed?

[kgray]

I did the same thing with a single post from Durga. I've expressed a townread on Jamie because of the communist PM hullabaloo. It's how I roll.

Okay about Durga, but the Jamie communist scenario isn't the same thing.

Scumreading him isn't. Townreading him because I don't think scum Jamie wouldn't go back, look at the town PM, and confirm whether it said communist is pretty comparable.

No I'm saying that's a more involved/concrete reason for a read than your recent reasons for townreading emc, but it doesn't really matter.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Flum, I think my problem with you is I feel like you're smart enough to understand my scum meta. Are you less amazing than you've led me to believe?

Can you tell me about your scum meta?

Do you sincerely think that (a) you have a scum meta that a smart person could identify, and (b) you expect that a smart person would think that you are unable to depart from your meta even though you are apparently aware of it?

That sounds fake.

In short, I look better when I'm scum. I do all the things I'm supposed to do, and I ruffle fewer feathers.

I'm pretty great, but I don't think it's possible to completely replicate my town play as scum, so I largely don't bother. I focus on creating as much confusion and as many miskills as possible, and I rely on the fact that many people see me doing the "right things" and townread me for them. Flum has picked up on this to an extent in the past. He scumread me in my last scum game in part because I was too widely townread.

Getting ND killed yesterday as I did was not good scum play. I legitimately believe it was good for the town, which is part of the reason it's bad scum play, but it's found to be something people remember and look negatively on for the rest of the game. My laying it out like this is enough to make most people ignore the argument entirely, but I'd expect Flum to have arrived at it independently.

I am trying my best to understand. I want to paraphrase, and you tell me if I have it right:

(1) Scum!ghug plays like a townie, but ruffles fewer feathers.
(2) Flum recently caught Scum!ghug
(3) You would expect that, if Flum were town, he would have read you as Town!ghug by now because getting ND voted out on Day 1 is different than your scum!ghug meta, which he is aware of, and you are aware of.
(4) so you think Flum may be scum here.
(5) you don’t think that you can replicate your town!ghug meta (which is like scum!ghug, but ruffling more feathers), as town, and you don’t think that Flum would think that you might adjust, even though he legit caught you last time you guys played together.

Do I have all that right?

[Balki Bartokomous]

@kgray, assuming ghug confirms my paraphrase, what do you think of all that?

[ghug]

Can you tell me about your scum meta?

Do you sincerely think that (a) you have a scum meta that a smart person could identify, and (b) you expect that a smart person would think that you are unable to depart from your meta even though you are apparently aware of it?

That sounds fake.

In short, I look better when I'm scum. I do all the things I'm supposed to do, and I ruffle fewer feathers.

I'm pretty great, but I don't think it's possible to completely replicate my town play as scum, so I largely don't bother. I focus on creating as much confusion and as many miskills as possible, and I rely on the fact that many people see me doing the "right things" and townread me for them. Flum has picked up on this to an extent in the past. He scumread me in my last scum game in part because I was too widely townread.

Getting ND killed yesterday as I did was not good scum play. I legitimately believe it was good for the town, which is part of the reason it's bad scum play, but it's found to be something people remember and look negatively on for the rest of the game. My laying it out like this is enough to make most people ignore the argument entirely, but I'd expect Flum to have arrived at it independently.

I am trying my best to understand. I want to paraphrase, and you tell me if I have it right:

(1) Scum!ghug plays like a townie, but ruffles fewer feathers.
(2) Flum recently caught Scum!ghug
(3) You would expect that, if Flum were town, he would have read you as Town!ghug by now because getting ND voted out on Day 1 is different than your scum!ghug meta, which he is aware of, and you are aware of.
(4) so you think Flum may be scum here.
(5) you don’t think that you can replicate your town!ghug meta (which is like scum!ghug, but ruffling more feathers), as town, and you don’t think that Flum would think that you might adjust, even though he legit caught you last time you guys played together.

Do I have all that right?

You've got the broad strokes, with a few scums and towns switched, I think.

Your issue seems to be that it's optimal to change my meta, since it got me caught last time. I should clarify that I survived to the end of that game and won, in spite of Flum's suspicion (he actually threw the game to me! (Hi kgray)), but I think the point still stands in general. The fact is that changing me my meta doesn't go well for me, whereas being perfect to a fault hasn't failed me yet. I'm not saying that you should townread me for it. I would expect Flum to.

[kgray]

@kgray, assuming ghug confirms my paraphrase, what do you think of all that?

(1) I've played only once with scum!ghug (M60) but he was my strongest townread until ~D6 and I let him pocket the shit out of me, so yeah I think scum!ghug does play like a townie.

(2) Flum did correctly scumread ghug for most of that game, though, so I don't think Flum necessarily thinks scum!ghug plays like a townie.

(3) I don't think ghug voting ND is a huge towntell even though ND would be good for scum to keep around because I think scum!ghug would prioritize blending in and getting towncred over keeping around someone who was bad for town.

But I guess overall even if I knew ghug was town I wouldn't see how this indicates that Flum is scum. Flum scumread town!ghug for most of D1 last game.

[Balki Bartokomous]

You've got the broad strokes, with a few scums and towns switched, I think.

Your issue seems to be that it's optimal to change my meta, since it got me caught last time. I should clarify that I survived to the end of that game and won, in spite of Flum's suspicion (he actually threw the game to me! (Hi kgray)), but I think the point still stands in general. The fact is that changing me my meta doesn't go well for me, whereas being perfect to a fault hasn't failed me yet. I'm not saying that you should townread me for it. I would expect Flum to.

The part that seems fake to me is that, here we are on Day 2, and you think that Flum should so obviously be able to read your alignment as Town, that you think failing to do so means Flum must not be trying sincerely.

For you to believe that, you have to think that (a) you can’t fool Flum, and (b) Flum would have such confidence that you wouldn’t try to shake your meta the game after he caught you that he’d be looking for the exact same thing now as last time and would call them out by early Day 2.

I don’t believe that you believe either of those things. I really don’t.

##vote ghug

[kgray]

You've got the broad strokes, with a few scums and towns switched, I think.

Your issue seems to be that it's optimal to change my meta, since it got me caught last time. I should clarify that I survived to the end of that game and won, in spite of Flum's suspicion (he actually threw the game to me! (Hi kgray)), but I think the point still stands in general. The fact is that changing me my meta doesn't go well for me, whereas being perfect to a fault hasn't failed me yet. I'm not saying that you should townread me for it. I would expect Flum to.

Yeah this makes sense to me. I don't see a reason for scum!ghug to change his meta just because Flum caught him last game when he was so widely townread by basically everybody else.

Also thanks for reminding me

[Balki Bartokomous]

@kgray, assuming ghug confirms my paraphrase, what do you think of all that?

(1) I've played only once with scum!ghug (M60) but he was my strongest townread until ~D6 and I let him pocket the shit out of me, so yeah I think scum!ghug does play like a townie.

(2) Flum did correctly scumread ghug for most of that game, though, so I don't think Flum necessarily thinks scum!ghug plays like a townie.

(3) I don't think ghug voting ND is a huge towntell even though ND would be good for scum to keep around because I think scum!ghug would prioritize blending in and getting towncred over keeping around someone who was bad for town.

But I guess overall even if I knew ghug was town I wouldn't see how this indicates that Flum is scum. Flum scumread town!ghug for most of D1 last game.

Good thoughts.

I’m not so interested in what this says about Flum’s alignment. I’m interested in what it says about ghug’s alignment.

I think ghug is very hard to read. I think ghug is aware of how hard to read he is. It is therefore shocking to me that town!ghug would try to read anyone based on them not townreading him by early Day 2.

[bozotheclown]

- Balki continually wasting his vote but then parking on teacon at the last second when it was too late looks much worse in retrospect

This phrasing makes my handsome forehead crinkle too!

How did I “continually waste my vote”?

I voted my conscience on Hamilton Brian. Then when it was clear to me that ship wouldn’t sail, I chose between the two leading wagons! Isn’t that the opposite of wasting my vote? I only have one vote. I used it to tell you all who I thought was scum, and then I weighed in on the emergent dipole.

Hellenic Riot is a smart dude. I just feel like he’s trying to discredit me here.

I know I am having trouble talking about people who are not me. But I’m trying to understand why a bunch of smart people are pushing this incorrect narrative.

After briefly voting for BunnyGo, why did you vote for Hamilton again at 4 minutes before EOD? Wasn't it already clear to you that Hamilton was not going to be the DK?

##VOTE Balki Bartokomous

[Balki Bartokomous]

After briefly voting for BunnyGo, why did you vote for Hamilton again at 4 minutes before EOD? Wasn't it already clear to you that Hamilton was not going to be the DK?

##VOTE Balki Bartokomous

Because I thought Hamilton Brian was most likely to flip scum and the votes seemed fluid to me. Just trying one more time to get something started.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Incidentally, @bozo, what is the reason for your vote?

[kgray]

I think ghug is very hard to read. I think ghug is aware of how hard to read he is. It is therefore shocking to me that town!ghug would try to read anyone based on them not townreading him by early Day 2.

Yes I agree that he's hard to read, but I'm not sure if he thinks he is? Last game as town, he strongly townread scum!Chaqa and Chaqa was insistent that ghug was town. Several people mentioned that there wasn't a towny explanation for why Chaqa would townread ghug so much, but town!ghug wasn't suspicious of it at all.

I'm not convinced that ghug thinking his alignment is obvious to others is scummy.

[ghug]

@kgray, assuming ghug confirms my paraphrase, what do you think of all that?

(1) I've played only once with scum!ghug (M60) but he was my strongest townread until ~D6 and I let him pocket the shit out of me, so yeah I think scum!ghug does play like a townie.

(2) Flum did correctly scumread ghug for most of that game, though, so I don't think Flum necessarily thinks scum!ghug plays like a townie.

(3) I don't think ghug voting ND is a huge towntell even though ND would be good for scum to keep around because I think scum!ghug would prioritize blending in and getting towncred over keeping around someone who was bad for town.

But I guess overall even if I knew ghug was town I wouldn't see how this indicates that Flum is scum. Flum scumread town!ghug for most of D1 last game.

Two things here. One, Flum used my widely townreadness as evidence that I was scum. Two, Flum townread me strongly enough by the end of day one last game to blindly sheep me without reading the game going forward. Two point five, his reasons made more sense to me last game.

[ghug]

You've got the broad strokes, with a few scums and towns switched, I think.

Your issue seems to be that it's optimal to change my meta, since it got me caught last time. I should clarify that I survived to the end of that game and won, in spite of Flum's suspicion (he actually threw the game to me! (Hi kgray)), but I think the point still stands in general. The fact is that changing me my meta doesn't go well for me, whereas being perfect to a fault hasn't failed me yet. I'm not saying that you should townread me for it. I would expect Flum to.

The part that seems fake to me is that, here we are on Day 2, and you think that Flum should so obviously be able to read your alignment as Town, that you think failing to do so means Flum must not be trying sincerely.

For you to believe that, you have to think that (a) you can’t fool Flum, and (b) Flum would have such confidence that you wouldn’t try to shake your meta the game after he caught you that he’d be looking for the exact same thing now as last time and would call them out by early Day 2.

I don’t believe that you believe either of those things. I really don’t.

##vote ghug

Voting for me based on one read I have rather than drawing any wider conclusions from the scum flip is not a good look.