M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[Vecna]

I was just making a point. And the way this game has been going, during the night phase any scum team with her on it wouldve realized that Kgray was very likely to be biting the bullet today. Hence if the two of you were scum together, I indeed wouldve fully expected you to use it on her.

[Vecna]

Mate.
I used it on myself.

Secondly, kgay is currently wagon #3. What are you on about?

but just stating the first part again in that way, im actually more inclined to just believe you

Seriously?

funny how that works, no?

[TheMadMonarch]

I was just making a point. And the way this game has been going, during the night phase any scum team with her on it wouldve realized that Kgray was very likely to be biting the bullet today. Hence if the two of you were scum together, I indeed wouldve fully expected you to use it on her.

Granted, I'm not the scumteam, but during night, I was not expecting her to be biting the bullet today.

[TheMadMonarch]

but just stating the first part again in that way, im actually more inclined to just believe you

Seriously?

funny how that works, no?

Okay, I ask this because I can't read sarcasm. I have no idea whether you are joking or not.

[Vecna]

im not joking, I think it conveyed some genuine annoyedness that I cant just believe you.

[TheMadMonarch]

im not joking, I think it conveyed some genuine annoyedness that I cant just believe you.

Well then. That's good.

[dargorygel]

Good morning

I expect this’ll be a long post, for me.

First, regarding my vote for kgray. I had been wondering at bunny’s tunneling. It is not ‘fun’ to be the recipient of bunny’s pushes. But it hadn’t bothered me overmuch. I know who I am. And I am feeling stronger and stronger about who HE is. I knew that over the next RL day, I was not going to be online much. So I decided to do a half-hearted reaction test.

I would say I agreed with him, and vote accordingly. (Sorry kgray.)

I expected/hoped that scumbunny would relentlessly pursue. I expected/hoped that townbunny would break out of any tunnel mode and look elsewhere. Not that townbunny would suddenly change his mind. But take the opportunity to look elsewhere.

What did I learn? Admittedly, not that much. Bunny gave a humorous meme, and committed to do a deep ISO (not directly in response to my vote, but I could see the possibility of a bit of a reaction.) So far so good. But whether because of busy-stuff in real life, or because he knew that his foundational case on me was faulty, or because he really didn’t care all that much about doing an ISO that what show, mebbe, what scumbunny already knows… he didn’t do it, yet. And when macca asked about my weird vote, bunny took the opportunity to cast silly shade once again.

Second, regarding the “search for scum choices…” I thought this was a worthwhile endeavor. I even proposed thinking along those lines. Voting simply on our reads had not been very effective so far. But this morning I am reminded of camels. Someone quipped that camels are simply horses designed by a committee. And thinking about what that first day in the Mafia Pre-QT must have been like, made me think of that camel-producing-committee. The Original Three must have squabbled, and disagreed, and spat at each other. No matter WHO the three were. Can we seriously imagine that they got organized, thought through mathematical ideas, and made long term predictions that early? WE have barely begun to reach that point, and we’ve had days and days. Scum would not have been auto-brilliant and cooperative.

(It does seem to me that they HAVE reached cooperation, though. This team has remained amazingly, unprecedented hidden-ness.)

So I am back to reads. And reads are where I usually do ok.

At this point, I think we should list our reads. I am going to describe mine a bit… but I don’t need that from anyone else. But let’s see if our reads lead us to a confluence of thought.

Bunnygo- no surprise to anyone, I think he is scum. He is not under threat, and so has been able to continue to tunnel on me. I add to my earlier posts about bunny with this particular note about his advice to me about what to do with fruit. He told me I should take care to give my fruit in a way that does NOT look like a strongman. I think that was bunny coming from his perspective as scum. Scum (or strong PR) tend to worry about what others think in the game. This advise seems like subconscious scum advice.

Macca- scum. Macca seems coached to me. And kind of blurty.
Chaqa- admittedly I usually read chaqa as scum. But he is a master at flying under the radar, but eventually he usually, when town, jumps in with some not-too-bad analysis. He is still low flying.

I think those three were the initial three (durga, of course, being pre-reincarnation bunny. I did NOT scum read durga, but looking back, I can see it.)

Rdrivera- likely recruit. I could see durga respecting rdr’s long game enough to recruit him. At one point, during durga’s most active time in our site, rdr was reputed to be among the best scumplayers. Here, he seems quiet. Sudden outbursts that don’t show a careful reading.

Damo, an early townread. Still there. Damo plays like an iceberg, and doesn’t usually reveal what’s beneath the sea. Scumdamo is a lot more accusing and jumpy.

Jamie- Detail oriented. Expands on details even when they are to his detriment. This ‘only speak ten times’ is very town-jamie, imo. Scum Jamie would be too eager to cover every base.

Kgray- I do not see what others see in her approach. She has been active, and logical. She rethinks things she has already said. I recall scumkgray as being more immoveble. The only ongoing persistent hate I see from kgray is towards chaqa. Which is understandable.

Vecna- maybe he has just effectively buddied me. But vecna here has been very solvey. He has not stuck to plans when they are shut down. And he has been consistent in his reads.

Where can town combine?

[dargorygel]

Now reading about Vecna's plan.

[dargorygel]

Voting simply my top scumread for now
##VOTE BUNNYGO

[kgray]

@Vecna: why the hell didn't you watch Macca last night?

He never even popped into my mind as an option, why would I want to be watching him? Just because he now came out with the "lol I wanted to use it so I self-used" post? It was a terrible choice he made. It doesnt make him look more towny whatsoever. It doesnt take away any fears from us of him having used it on you....Also, its not like it was a 100% lock that he was the UB during the nightphase (likely though as it was).

The rationale behind my use was simple.

-Either I do the predictable thing of watching Kgray (which I felt a scum-team with you on it would definitely work around so I wouldnt get anything incriminating)
-Or I watch Jamiet (but I felt if he was targeted by anything it would likely be a roleblock to allow scum to kill me)
-Or I watch someone unpredictable with a smaller chance of maybe catching the UB, or confirming/catching a tracker. Also to make sure that person could be daykilled today.

I had you as my target right up untill an hour before EoN I think. Then my mind focused again on the logic that scum appears to have been avoiding kills that might be docsaved. People were suggesting that Bunny was the second most likeliest person to have been recruited, and he was one of my preferred daykill targets for today at that time.

I don’t know about this. If Macca is town then of course they’d use it on themselves at this point. You, damo and I had already made it clear in the thread that we thought we knew their role, and they were a wagon for a good part of the day yesterday. So using it on themselves is the only reasonable thing for town!Macca to do. Seeing them use it on themselves doesn’t necessarily clear them, but seeing them *not* use it on themselves would be a lot more suspicious, and we’d know they were a DK option.

You’re saying that macca claiming you use it on themselves doesn’t take away any fears of actually using it on me, but it does. If you’d seen the protect on them you’d know they didn’t use it on me, right?

Idk, I’ve been useless with my role this game so I can’t really criticize you. But I’m fairly concerned about this because I think that watching macca could give more info about their alignment than watching anyone else, so it’s what I’d expect town!Vecna to do.

[dargorygel]

At this point, I like the vecna plan. At least five need to vote for NK, though, to ensure that scum doesn't pile on the end.

The value is not so much 'clearing' macca (it doesn't, fully) but that it gives us another night/day to evaluate.

Unless we find an absulute scum-tell that is obvious... we are shooting in the dark, today. I realize that some of you have ABSOLUTE sureness on top scumchoices... but the fact that eveyone has joined anyone on the pile-on shows that we are not convinced.

[dargorygel]

At this point, I like the vecna plan. At least five need to vote for NK, though, to ensure that scum doesn't pile on the end.

The value is not so much 'clearing' macca (it doesn't, fully) but that it gives us another night/day to evaluate.

Unless we find an absulute scum-tell that is obvious... we are shooting in the dark, today. I realize that some of you have ABSOLUTE sureness on top scumchoices... but the fact that eveyone has joined anyone on the pile-on shows that we are not convinced.

*but the fact that NOT everyone has joined anyone...

[damo666]

OK let's keep a Vecna plan tally

FOR Vecna darg

AGAINST damo rdr

To declare: Chaqa Bunny Jamie kgray Macca

[BunnyGo]

Just caught up. No surprise that dargo s**ks. Oh my god.

Vecna’a plan is bad for one big reason, and the fact he and dargo are pushing it worries me: Flum has been unreliable since his first day dead. @@FLUM: you here buddy? If you like Vecna’s plan then vote MACCA!!

But he won’t. And so it’s bad. Because tomorrow we’re stuck following our one townclear and hoping they hit. And if they don’t, we lose. Flum is a townclear, but probably isn’t following closely. Vecna knows all this. Dargo does too.

So do Damo and rdr. But I trust rdr more (see previous posts for why). They are also posting with a head on their shoulders.

I suggest everyone read the Vecna-dargo pages that he found so convincing that nothing can even enter his brain that dargo is scum. I’ll reserve my thoughts till then.

[dargorygel]

fwiw
The NK pattern makes me:
a) Suspicious about Vecna's survival (still townreading him, though)
b) think that maybe scumteam DID organize some elaborate mechanical thing, and wanted to get rid of folk they think are good mech-thinkers.

[BunnyGo]

fwiw
The NK pattern makes me:
a) Suspicious about Vecna's survival (still townreading him, though)
b) think that maybe scumteam DID organize some elaborate mechanical thing, and wanted to get rid of folk they think are good mech-thinkers.

Hmm. I will admit I hadn’t considered why scum would choose vecnas role. I’m still unsure why they’d want it. Maybe as a cheap “keep from town”. But I don’t see the positive for scum.

[damo666]

OK let's keep a Vecna plan tally

FOR Vecna darg

AGAINST damo rdr bunny

To declare: Chaqa Jamie kgray Macca

[kgray]

Ill pose you an interesting puzzle. What is the most damning thing Rdrivera has done today?

Umm... I don't think he's done anything particularly damning today? He's kind of just been around, which is how he's been all game. I really dislike that he seems to have forgotten about his previously very strong scumread of Chaqa, now that Chaqa is finally a wagon.

Did I miss something big?

[BunnyGo]

I wouldnt be too surprised if the scumteam is actually just Macca-Kgray-Ghug-Chaqa

Either chaqa or ghug could be replaced by -maybe- rdrivera/Damo

rdrivera/damo...
I have strongly townread damo all game. I even changed my 'use plan' for my fruit based on HIS (and others' description/advice... but really mostly HIS not performing as i expected...) announcement of the fruit. This morning, I am thinking that I have some bias going. His argument about Jamie is faulty, yes. I am not sure that is AI, though. He is picking holes in the prevailing reasoning, but that is very damo, yes? I am not ready to vote for him.

rdrivera has not made an impression on me. It doesn't seem likely to me that scum would choose that role. But maybe teacon (et al) are right. IF scum had chosen rdr's role, it would have had the result we presently have. Rdr seems 'safe.' AND he would have low-boiled the entire game? I don't know... he might have, as scum, tried to take an active town-leader persona.

I do not really see either likely.

Awesome, welcome to my towncore - you just flipped as hard as wisconsin

Here's the post where Vecna announces dargo is in his towncore. All dargo had to do was agree that Macca was scum and then post whatever about damo and rdr that Vecna had mused about. Let me know if anyone else sees something massively convincing here.

[rdrivera2005]

Ill pose you an interesting puzzle. What is the most damning thing Rdrivera has done today?

Umm... I don't think he's done anything particularly damning today? He's kind of just been around, which is how he's been all game. I really dislike that he seems to have forgotten about his previously very strong scumread of Chaqa, now that Chaqa is finally a wagon.

Did I miss something big?

Interstating you don't dislike I am not voting you, who I was voting yesterday and that I still think is scum.

Chaqa is on my scumlist too, but I think it need to be one of Chaqa/Macca/Dargo and I think we have a better chance going for one of the useless trackers. And I explained this before, so your comment feel really weird to me.
Your push on Chaqa don't remember me town Kgray that I usually can easily follow the reasoning.