M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[Vecna]

although youre paraphrasing that incorrectly

[BunnyGo]

yes

Wasn't that because you'd just lost to scum!bunny in a previous game?

[BunnyGo]

although youre paraphrasing that incorrectly

That's fair.

I have a feeling you and I have trouble connecting as town somehow. I still don't understand your read on dargo. But I'll put in some effort tonight to see if I can appreciate it. I have kids' bedtimes and bridge before that.

[Chaqa]

Bunny + Kgray + 1-2 [Chaqa/Rdrivera} + 0-2 [damo/Macca]

So hard to come up with decent compositions that do not include Kgray

This is about what I'm thinking, with Dargo being a potential wildcard.

[TheMadMonarch]

11. Why is Chaqa the lead wagon?

Here are the reasons given by Chaqa voters:
<snip>
MACCA:

Oh yeah

##VOTE chaqa

I'm not great on kgray, but chaqa is a the scumiest imo.

> Throws shade on Kgray while voting Chaqa alongside her.

QUESTION: Macca, why is Chaqa "the scummiest"?
<snip>

Of the people being voted for at that time (Myself, Damo, kgray, Chaqa), he is one of 2 I was scumreading (kgray, chaqa), and he is more scummy out of the two.

Just the way he's been going all game, lots of people seem to distrust him, but he's never garnered a single vote at EOD.

[TheMadMonarch]

<snip>
I'll read this carefully tomorrow. If bunny is right, scum is among the docs? Because i am not.

tldr; Sit down for 10 minutes and think through what the scum were deciding at the beginning that they bypassed other roles and chose from this group of roles. Tell me what you come up with. Because I don't see how they bypass fruit vendor AND the doctors.

Ok... I think bunny is right.
This IS not the only scum. But it is probably one.
We should vote between me, kgray and Jamie...
Unless someone comes up with a better plan.
Combine gut feelings gas not worked do far.

I'll line out my reasoning on my choice when I have time.
##vote kgray

Not Chaqa?

What happened to him?

[BunnyGo]

tldr; Sit down for 10 minutes and think through what the scum were deciding at the beginning that they bypassed other roles and chose from this group of roles. Tell me what you come up with. Because I don't see how they bypass fruit vendor AND the doctors.

Ok... I think bunny is right.
This IS not the only scum. But it is probably one.
We should vote between me, kgray and Jamie...
Unless someone comes up with a better plan.
Combine gut feelings gas not worked do far.

I'll line out my reasoning on my choice when I have time.
##vote kgray

Not Chaqa?

What happened to him?

He's realized that my push on the fruit vendor is likely to gain traction. And that the only counter wagon has to be a doctor. It's a preemptive panic vote.

[BunnyGo]

Ok...bridge just ended and I have to be awake in 7 hours for work/kids. So...not gonna get to the full dargo ISO soon. Will look at Vecna's pages.

[kgray]

I was going to try to think through the scum D1 pick options but I just don't have the energy right now. I will say that there's no scumteam ever who would choose two healers. I also think the argument that scum wouldn't have figured out the use for the fruit vendor role is pretty weak. As soon as I read my role PM I looked for the other protective roles and realized that the FV could get in my way.

But the "what would the scumteam have done" talk really just feels like a distraction anyway. It's easy for scum to push people based on whatever convenient narrative they want to go with by doing this. I'm suspicious of the people doing it (Bunny) and even more of the people going along with it (darg).

[kgray]

@darg please explain to me how it took only an hour for Bunny, your biggest scumread, to change your mind so drastically:

@vecna... Why do you town read me

100% based on our live interactions. I think youre utterly incapable of faking that back-and-forth attempt at solving, and thinking on your feet like that.

roles be damned, ill follow that instinct no matter what

Thanks. You may all shake your heads at me later, but gut is what we have. I am concerned about those who pretend otherwise. I'm not saying we should not solve, but I'm back to admitting that any mechanics are wifommy guessing.

I have nothing on chaqa but gut feeling, btw. Leaving it there for now. I could vote for the tunnel-king bunny, too.

<snip>
I'll read this carefully tomorrow. If bunny is right, scum is among the docs? Because i am not.

tldr; Sit down for 10 minutes and think through what the scum were deciding at the beginning that they bypassed other roles and chose from this group of roles. Tell me what you come up with. Because I don't see how they bypass fruit vendor AND the doctors.

Ok... I think bunny is right.
This IS not the only scum. But it is probably one.
We should vote between me, kgray and Jamie...
Unless someone comes up with a better plan.
Combine gut feelings gas not worked do far.

I'll line out my reasoning on my choice when I have time.
##vote kgray

[kgray]

@Vecna: why the hell didn't you watch Macca last night?

[kgray]

tldr; Sit down for 10 minutes and think through what the scum were deciding at the beginning that they bypassed other roles and chose from this group of roles. Tell me what you come up with. Because I don't see how they bypass fruit vendor AND the doctors.

This is really unconvincing to me, and not just because I'm a doc. Docs don't do anything for scum and they aren't even that useful to town. Jamie saved himself from the Vengeful but neither of us have managed to prevent a scum NK. Trackers are a lot more harmful to a scumteam than docs are *and* they can actually help scum figure out roles.

So if you remove the fact that we each know our own roles and alignments, and put yourself in a "what would scum do D1" perspective like you're wanting us all to do, I think scum are a lot more likely to pick up both trackers than both healers.

Cool. Thanks. Do you suspect me and Damo for mechanical reasons. With your last purchase as scum, what do you think they picked?

No I'm not saying I suspect you for mechanical reasons. I'm just saying I don't think your argument makes any sense.

[kgray]

I’m incredulous that anyone can look at how yesterday went down and not immediately vote for kgray.

Because if we misskill it's game over.

Hmm. Townpoints for Rivera.

[kgray]

Well, im quite confident that Durga would push for a Kgray recruit and visa versa

I wouldn't push to recruit her. I'd love to be on her team but I know she hates being scum so she'd just be pissed at me haha

[BunnyGo]

This is really unconvincing to me, and not just because I'm a doc. Docs don't do anything for scum and they aren't even that useful to town. Jamie saved himself from the Vengeful but neither of us have managed to prevent a scum NK. Trackers are a lot more harmful to a scumteam than docs are *and* they can actually help scum figure out roles.

So if you remove the fact that we each know our own roles and alignments, and put yourself in a "what would scum do D1" perspective like you're wanting us all to do, I think scum are a lot more likely to pick up both trackers than both healers.

Cool. Thanks. Do you suspect me and Damo for mechanical reasons. With your last purchase as scum, what do you think they picked?

No I'm not saying I suspect you for mechanical reasons. I'm just saying I don't think your argument makes any sense.

How do you play mafia if you can't get into other people's heads? What else *is* the point of this game? You don't strike me as a particularly mechanically minded person, so what else is left?

[kgray]

Oh, my Chaqa case. It's basically these things:

• Yeah so the main thing is admittedly omgus and that he doesn't have any good reasons for his reads. This goes for everyone, but since he's spent all game focused on scumreading me, I'm the most obvious example. I think he just saw that vocal and respected people were suspicious of me and joined in. He hasn't actually explained why he thinks I'm scum (he vaguely sites "things others have pointed out" and gut, or ignores my questions, or deflects), and yet he's been "convinced" that I'm scum this entire game. The more "concrete" things he has pointed to are just him twisting my words or misrepresenting what happened.

• It's not just that he's not even considering that I could be town, but more importantly he's not even looking for any other scum - even at this stage in the game! It's because he thinks he can just get me miskilled here and it's gg.

• I was similarly suspicious of his confidence in his ghug read. ghug tricked literally everyone into townreading him last game (including Chaqa), and Chaqa never once questioned ghug's alignment here. The worlds most extreme case of buddying.

• Now that we know DV was town, I definitely think he scumslipped with his colored votes list.

[kgray]

Cool. Thanks. Do you suspect me and Damo for mechanical reasons. With your last purchase as scum, what do you think they picked?

No I'm not saying I suspect you for mechanical reasons. I'm just saying I don't think your argument makes any sense.

How do you play mafia if you can't get into other people's heads? What else *is* the point of this game? You don't strike me as a particularly mechanically minded person, so what else is left?

Sorry I don't really understand your question and I don't see what it has to do with what we were talking about. I'm not big on mechanics, no. I do try to get into peoples heads, and see if they seem like they have too much info or are pushing a narrative or subtly manipulating people. But I'm not sure how that's relevant to my point that healers are an objectively worse choice for scum to pick than trackers.

[BunnyGo]

No I'm not saying I suspect you for mechanical reasons. I'm just saying I don't think your argument makes any sense.

How do you play mafia if you can't get into other people's heads? What else *is* the point of this game? You don't strike me as a particularly mechanically minded person, so what else is left?

Sorry I don't really understand your question and I don't see what it has to do with what we were talking about. I'm not big on mechanics, no. I do try to get into peoples heads, and see if they seem like they have too much info or are pushing a narrative or subtly manipulating people. But I'm not sure how that's relevant to my point that healers are an objectively worse choice for scum to pick than trackers.

Fine, so what were the scum thinking?

It seems pretty clear to me that they most likely decided to take the unlimited strongman (and use as needed), and probably swing away with the universal backup. They had a day to discuss. I don't see these roles left and anything else being chosen honestly.

But more than that, ANY combination I've tried to put together ends up choosing the fruit vendor.

Take two trackers (they didn't, but for arguments sake): well...grab the fruit vendor to negate doctors

Take two doctors (need the white flag): well, better grab the fruit vendor so they have a reason to be moving, and it is better than the other cheap options.

Take any other wacky combination: well, grab the fruit vendor for strongman, and better than tree stump or vanilla.


So, why not make our doctors useful again, while also removing the single role we can be sure scum *wanted*.


Getting in people's heads isn't just seeing if they know too much, or are caught in a lie, or are able to charm Vecna or buddy. It's a retroactive ability. This is why VCA is useful. It's why bozo's polls are sometimes helpful. You get to see a snapshot of someone and try and put their mind on trial. We have that now with the scum team's choices.

At first glance, scum's ability to choose roles seemed super OP (overpowered) to me. But in retrospect, it's actually very powerful for town. We can solve just based on their choices. Let's start making them pay for it (unless you really think they randomized their choices).

[Chaqa]

Oh, my Chaqa case. It's basically these things:

• Yeah so the main thing is admittedly omgus and that he doesn't have any good reasons for his reads. This goes for everyone, but since he's spent all game focused on scumreading me, I'm the most obvious example. My initial reason for scum-reading you was quite light, and involved a general meta justification and gut-feel. I think he just saw that vocal and respected people were suspicious of me and joined in. He hasn't actually explained why he thinks I'm scum (he vaguely sites "things others have pointed out" and gut, or ignores my questions, or deflects) I explained that, as above, it began as a gut feeling, and then your reactions to my scum-read of you were not what I believe to be town reactions., and yet he's been "convinced" that I'm scum this entire game This is not true. I was not convinced until I came up with the idea of locking my vote in until my three top townreads (at the time) said I should. It maybe didn't make the most sense, but the way you reacted to it was VERY scummy, IMO. Instead of trying to convince me and them that you weren't scummy, you attacked me for "shirking" my vote or w/e you had said.. The more "concrete" things he has pointed to are just him twisting my words or misrepresenting what happened.

• It's not just that he's not even considering that I could be town, but more importantly he's not even looking for any other scum - even at this stage in the game! It's because he thinks he can just get me miskilled here and it's gg. This is untrue. I've outlined more townreads than scumreads, true, but I have pushed other scumreads - notably I thought Seth was scummy, and also think Bunny looks bad now./color]

• I was similarly suspicious of his confidence in his ghug read. ghug tricked literally everyone into townreading him last game (including Chaqa), and Chaqa never once questioned ghug's alignment here. The worlds most extreme case of buddying. I didn't really pay attention last game after I died, but I don't rcall thinking ghug was all that town for read reasons - last game I had him down more as a PoE clear because of the day 1 summit bus

• Now that we know DV was town, I definitely think he scumslipped with his colored votes list. To be quite honest, I thought ghug was the Double Voter until he flipped, which was part of why I was townreading him so strongly.

See my remarks in green.

[BunnyGo]

@chaqa, your read on me for EOD yesterday is completely unexplained. If you also scumread Seth then:

1) What did you mind about my voting Seth?
2) What did you mind about me being a decisive vote on kgray?
3) What did you mind about me moving to not have a potential tie after Jamie/Vecna/rdr would have caused one?

Can you explain why you think I look bad, but kgray squirming or Jamie saving her, or Vecna and rdr moving their votes look OK?