M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[Jamiet99uk]

This is a vote post and therefore I'm not counting it off my total.

I volunteer to ##VOTE MACCA

This makes it a 3-3 tie between Kgray's Anatomy and Chaq-Stump

[Chaqa]

I’m incredulous that anyone can look at how yesterday went down and not immediately vote for kgray.

[rdrivera2005]

feature recruitments into your thinking people.

mafia had 10 points to spent

I am parsing, that's why both Healers is nonsense. If scum thought on FV as a strongman in the first 24h is an obvious choice, but I am not so sure as I didn't thought on it before someone talk about it.

I think at least one tracker is also an obvious choice, so you avoid two town trackers and can hunt PRs and you know which night you can't be tracked. Two trackers if they fear a lot the investigative powers or a trackers and a Healer for a balanced choice

Tree Stump isn't s bad choice in this case lconsidering it gives a margin for a RB and is as useless as PV.

I don't think they will go for UB for 5, same cost of a Tracker or the first Healer and can't see Mafia recruiting Macca, so he isn't an option to me.

And Vecna could be playing us all, but in this case we are screwed anyway.

[BunnyGo]

I'm fairly sure they recruited at this point because:

A) They started with 80 coin, and the most expensive 3 remaining roles together are about 25 coin. So they could role block an unlimited number of times if they didn't recruit, and nobody has ever claimed one. Hence, they recruited.

B) I was shouting at damo for voting chaqa when he stated he's just sheeping. It's too early to sheep. Damo said "I think fruit vendor is scummiest role left...but I'll just vote for a viable wagon instead." This is awful. This is really really awful. Vote your reads at this point. Sheep "viability" later.

C) I assume that any 3 remaining players here with 24 hours had a mental state. I'm not saying it was perfect, but it was considered. Even the three least experienced and mechanics oriented players remaining here can read and think. What were they thinking? Did all 3 of them not read the rules? Did they not discuss which of the three cheap roles was valuable? Your (Jamie's) plausible statement you didn't realize that is another small nudge for me that you're not scum and so points me yet again that dargo is.

D) If it is kgray, then everything else is pointing at you. Taking one doctor is meh. Also, you more than anyone else saved her yesterday (which combines with the taking two doctors thing). But yes, I am having trouble concocting a mafia team that isn't: dargo + others or jamie+kgray+white flag + others.

Why are you limiting your posts?

maybe you should reread the point ammounts so that you can either be properly informed or stop pretending to not be properly informed.

Where have I missed?

Maybe you can do the exercise?

Maybe you can reread dargo? Or at least point me to the exchange you find so convincing?

[BunnyGo]

<snip>
I'll read this carefully tomorrow. If bunny is right, scum is among the docs? Because i am not.

tldr; Sit down for 10 minutes and think through what the scum were deciding at the beginning that they bypassed other roles and chose from this group of roles. Tell me what you come up with. Because I don't see how they bypass fruit vendor AND the doctors.

This is really unconvincing to me, and not just because I'm a doc. Docs don't do anything for scum and they aren't even that useful to town. Jamie saved himself from the Vengeful but neither of us have managed to prevent a scum NK. Trackers are a lot more harmful to a scumteam than docs are *and* they can actually help scum figure out roles.

So if you remove the fact that we each know our own roles and alignments, and put yourself in a "what would scum do D1" perspective like you're wanting us all to do, I think scum are a lot more likely to pick up both trackers than both healers.

Cool. Thanks. Do you suspect me and Damo for mechanical reasons. With your last purchase as scum, what do you think they picked?

[BunnyGo]

feature recruitments into your thinking people.

mafia had 10 points to spent

Have you decided on what roles you think they chose?

[BunnyGo]

I’m incredulous that anyone can look at how yesterday went down and not immediately vote for kgray.

I’m inclined to think that way too. And if she’s scum, I start to look very side eyed at Jamie and less so at dargo.

Do you have thoughts on the role choice exercise?

[rdrivera2005]

I’m incredulous that anyone can look at how yesterday went down and not immediately vote for kgray.

Because if we misskill it's game over.

[BunnyGo]

feature recruitments into your thinking people.

mafia had 10 points to spent

Unless they took white flag.

[Vecna]

feature recruitments into your thinking people.

mafia had 10 points to spent

Unless they took white flag.

its possible if they -really- wanted daychat. But then they really made some strange choices in letting the diarist go

[Chaqa]

I’m incredulous that anyone can look at how yesterday went down and not immediately vote for kgray.

I’m inclined to think that way too. And if she’s scum, I start to look very side eyed at Jamie and less so at dargo.

Do you have thoughts on the role choice exercise?

I think it really would depend on who the scum team is. Everyone's playstyles are different... but I think Fruit Vendor would make sense as a scum role because of its Strongman capabilities, except that Dargo really doesn't give me many scum vibes.

If they didn't take FV, then it would make logical sense for them to take Tree Stump, but I know I'm town, so they must have done something like FH, Tracker, Vanilla? Or maybe double Tracker, Vanilla...

Idk, really.

[BunnyGo]

feature recruitments into your thinking people.

mafia had 10 points to spent

Unless they took white flag.

its possible if they -really- wanted daychat. But then they really made some strange choices in letting the diarist go

I don't disagree. What's your thoughts given what is left?

[Chaqa]

I’m incredulous that anyone can look at how yesterday went down and not immediately vote for kgray.

Because if we misskill it's game over.

The late push on ghug was so scummy, and we know seth was town. Kgray HAS to be scum.

[damo666]

feature recruitments into your thinking people.

mafia had 10 points to spent

Unless they took white flag.

Why would you recruit for 80 and lose a lot of its purpose for 20?

I very much doubt scum did that.

[Vecna]

I'm fairly sure they recruited at this point because:

A) They started with 80 coin, and the most expensive 3 remaining roles together are about 25 coin. So they could role block an unlimited number of times if they didn't recruit, and nobody has ever claimed one. Hence, they recruited.

B) I was shouting at damo for voting chaqa when he stated he's just sheeping. It's too early to sheep. Damo said "I think fruit vendor is scummiest role left...but I'll just vote for a viable wagon instead." This is awful. This is really really awful. Vote your reads at this point. Sheep "viability" later.

C) I assume that any 3 remaining players here with 24 hours had a mental state. I'm not saying it was perfect, but it was considered. Even the three least experienced and mechanics oriented players remaining here can read and think. What were they thinking? Did all 3 of them not read the rules? Did they not discuss which of the three cheap roles was valuable? Your (Jamie's) plausible statement you didn't realize that is another small nudge for me that you're not scum and so points me yet again that dargo is.

D) If it is kgray, then everything else is pointing at you. Taking one doctor is meh. Also, you more than anyone else saved her yesterday (which combines with the taking two doctors thing). But yes, I am having trouble concocting a mafia team that isn't: dargo + others or jamie+kgray+white flag + others.

Why are you limiting your posts?

maybe you should reread the point ammounts so that you can either be properly informed or stop pretending to not be properly informed.

Where have I missed?

Maybe you can do the exercise?

Maybe you can reread dargo? Or at least point me to the exchange you find so convincing?

its like page 177-180 or so

[BunnyGo]

I’m incredulous that anyone can look at how yesterday went down and not immediately vote for kgray.

I’m inclined to think that way too. And if she’s scum, I start to look very side eyed at Jamie and less so at dargo.

Do you have thoughts on the role choice exercise?

I think it really would depend on who the scum team is. Everyone's playstyles are different... but I think Fruit Vendor would make sense as a scum role because of its Strongman capabilities, except that Dargo really doesn't give me many scum vibes.

If they didn't take FV, then it would make logical sense for them to take Tree Stump, but I know I'm town, so they must have done something like FH, Tracker, Vanilla? Or maybe double Tracker, Vanilla...

Idk, really.

There's an answer...if you can't figure out what they were thinking, then you aren't working it out. Get into the scum mind and find them. Demurring like this is scummy.

And to paraphrase the great detective: if all possibilities seem unlikely, they are still possible.

Can you explain why dargo is giving you towny vibes? Because that one sentence is what is making it hard for you to put together an analysis.

[BunnyGo]

feature recruitments into your thinking people.

mafia had 10 points to spent

Unless they took white flag.

Why would you recruit for 80 and lose a lot of its purpose for 20?

I very much doubt scum did that.

White flag with a recruit is still a big win (extra voting power, fewer town). But again, I don't disagree.

[BunnyGo]

maybe you should reread the point ammounts so that you can either be properly informed or stop pretending to not be properly informed.

Where have I missed?

Maybe you can do the exercise?

Maybe you can reread dargo? Or at least point me to the exchange you find so convincing?

its like page 177-180 or so

Thanks, I'll take a look. I'm gonna do a reread of dargo's ISO (it's been a while), but I'll look at that first.

[Vecna]

Unless they took white flag.

its possible if they -really- wanted daychat. But then they really made some strange choices in letting the diarist go

I don't disagree. What's your thoughts given what is left?

Theres a few routes. but theres a bunch of things to consider

-The nightkills so far have all sort of indicated that scum were trying to dodge docsaves. This could have been an elaborate strategy to set up Kgray to look great. Or it couldve just been that they had to try and dodge docsaves.

-I get your points about the FV being a useful way to circumvent the docsave issue. I still feel that its a dangerous road to use. Upon massclaim, the role will instantly become blatantly scum if it was used to kill people. It would have to hide to use it like this. I never hid though. Dargo made it obvious from D1 onward that he had it. Thus completely removing the use of it. Its possible they recruited Kgray and thus decided it wasnt as important anymore, and just wanted to make dargo look good instead.

-Seth dying yesterday by NK. Strongly strongly indicates that they knew he was the doublevoter. I dont think they take that shot there unless theyre pretty sure. They wouldve been sure if the scumteam is: Bunny/Damo/Chaqa/Macca since all other roles are outed. They maybe also couldve gotten there with rolecops or if the trackers are lying. Its quite likely a combination of the two. Regardless, they knew, else why reduce our daykill pool of suspicious people. I was the only one townreading him. It wouldve been dumb to take a risk there, really. They were sure they could make today the last day.

Ill factor my reads into this, since if I dont the possibilities are just way too endless and it becomes an exercise in futility with way too many variables.

For the grouping.....

Scenario A (weakness to doctors): take two trackers, take either the public vanilla or the Treestump. Recruitment choice? Take the good scum player (Kgray) or take the person that people wont really suspect and that is historically decent at hiding (Rdrivera/Chaqa). Scum team composition: Bunny, Damo and 2/3 of [Chaqa, Rdrivera, Kgray]

Scenario B (weakness to tracking): Take one faith healer and the UB to just have decent overall PR's. Who are you recruiting though if you already have Kgray on your team in this scenario? Bunny probably? Rdrivera maybe? Regardless, it matters very little for scum team composition except that Macca is now on the team.

Scenario C (Mix of PRs): Take a mix of UB/tracker or FH/tracker. Seems a bit stranger of a strategy. Also the only realistic remaining option I think there they do -maybe- take white flag to take cheap tracker, UB, FH and keep 6 points for RB/rolecops. I really dont think scum take White flag without some stronger power in return though.

[Vecna]

Also, dont ignore the option that scum mightve just taken a subpar strategy. Theres a bunch of potential 3p scum starts that fit here that I just dont see coming up with a great plan in 24 hours.

Dont put it past scum Chaqa to take treestump just so he can annoy/troll the hell out of us past death