M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[Donny Dude]

And also because the possibility that Bozo was doing a play-for-play copy of protecting emc like I did when I was scum in M57 is not out of the question. Why was Bozo the person to lead the mafia kill given the fact he was widely townread? Why on earth was emc not leading the kill and thus being the one blown up?

Bozo was widely townread?

[kgray]

##vote ghug

That's rude.

Spending all game buddying me and making me trust you is rude.

[Hellenic Riot]

##vote Durga

[ghug]

##vote ghug

That's rude.

Spending all game buddying me and making me trust you is rude.

Townreading you isn't buddying you.

[Hellenic Riot]

The fact that Tom and worcej both died the night after making cases on Bozo makes his leading the kill even more bizarre

[kgray]

Bullet points on ghug

I think he spent most of D1 subtly encouraging counter wagons to summit. Look at the vote history. A lot of this was under the guise of “making things interesting.” I do expect ghug to this as town to tbh, as he very much values close wagons at eod for information. But I didn’t love how he did it this game. He kicked the tires on many wagons - and at one point said something along the lines of “ive gotta go for a few hours, Tom, Flum make this interesting”. He wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting to potentially be the most suspicious if there was a town miskill that protected summit.

He did vote summit with 24 minutes left at a pivotal point. However, I do think he is the most likely busser here because of the wagons. Ghug has a high opinion of Maniac so he would need a good excuse to vote him D1 and that was the eod counter wagon to summit. He even questioned me saying something like “Maniac isn’t good enough to be in your do not kill D1 list?” He also could not avoid the lead wagons because of his strong known belief in how important it is for everyone to be on the main wagons late. I think he could have been cornered into bussing.

I think past that day, he kicks the tires on multiple wagons and for someone who says they are good at driving wagons he doesn’t do much of it. His most aggressive questioning has tended to come against people who aren’t really in danger (Durga, Vecna etc). He seems to be distancing himself from flips which is unlike him.

Very small thought I’m my mind also is how he engaged me on Alice In Chains - which I think may have been him probing to see if I was traitor and trying to give me an avenue to signal. This is likely nothing but it did strike me as a little awkward.

Finally, considering the flips I do think bussing was happening D1. I’ve explained why I don’t think you would throw summit onto the tracks. I townread HR. I townread Flum. That leaves flash, bozo, Durga and ghug as the most likely bussers. For reasons above I think ghug could have been forced into it.

Tom's case on scum!ghug came right before he was NK'd, and his points are pretty valid. He did avoid the summit wagon and encourage other ones D1, and the way bozo focused on Flum doing the same thing over ghug is pretty compelling. Ghug (and Durga) also continually questioned my bozo read D4.

[ghug]

The fact that Tom and worcej both died the night after making cases on Bozo makes his leading the kill even more bizarre

What conclusion are you drawing here?


I've felt all day like if emc were town, scum would be making a push to save him, but HR being the one to do it doesn't make a ton of sense.

[ghug]

Bullet points on ghug

I think he spent most of D1 subtly encouraging counter wagons to summit. Look at the vote history. A lot of this was under the guise of “making things interesting.” I do expect ghug to this as town to tbh, as he very much values close wagons at eod for information. But I didn’t love how he did it this game. He kicked the tires on many wagons - and at one point said something along the lines of “ive gotta go for a few hours, Tom, Flum make this interesting”. He wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting to potentially be the most suspicious if there was a town miskill that protected summit.

He did vote summit with 24 minutes left at a pivotal point. However, I do think he is the most likely busser here because of the wagons. Ghug has a high opinion of Maniac so he would need a good excuse to vote him D1 and that was the eod counter wagon to summit. He even questioned me saying something like “Maniac isn’t good enough to be in your do not kill D1 list?” He also could not avoid the lead wagons because of his strong known belief in how important it is for everyone to be on the main wagons late. I think he could have been cornered into bussing.

I think past that day, he kicks the tires on multiple wagons and for someone who says they are good at driving wagons he doesn’t do much of it. His most aggressive questioning has tended to come against people who aren’t really in danger (Durga, Vecna etc). He seems to be distancing himself from flips which is unlike him.

Very small thought I’m my mind also is how he engaged me on Alice In Chains - which I think may have been him probing to see if I was traitor and trying to give me an avenue to signal. This is likely nothing but it did strike me as a little awkward.

Finally, considering the flips I do think bussing was happening D1. I’ve explained why I don’t think you would throw summit onto the tracks. I townread HR. I townread Flum. That leaves flash, bozo, Durga and ghug as the most likely bussers. For reasons above I think ghug could have been forced into it.

Tom's case on scum!ghug came right before he was NK'd, and his points are pretty valid. He did avoid the summit wagon and encourage other ones D1, and the way bozo focused on Flum doing the same thing over ghug is pretty compelling. Ghug (and Durga) also continually questioned my bozo read D4.

If you actually read day one, summit was my preferred wagon for most of the day, and I moved back to him once a serious counterwagon formed. It's also consistent with my play in other days, which have mostly ended up town v town, and in other games, though you wouldn't know that.

Wasn't bozo saying both Flum and I were scummy? It's not like he was pushing Flum and then refusing to push me for doing the same thing.

[kgray]

That's rude.

Spending all game buddying me and making me trust you is rude.

Townreading you isn't buddying you.

It's not just the townreading, but you never questioned that read. I think the closest you got is saying you should look into it later and you didn't do that.

[kgray]

The fact that Tom and worcej both died the night after making cases on Bozo makes his leading the kill even more bizarre

What conclusion are you drawing here?


I've felt all day like if emc were town, scum would be making a push to save him, but HR being the one to do it doesn't make a ton of sense.

Why would scum try to save town!emc?

[kgray]

Bullet points on ghug

I think he spent most of D1 subtly encouraging counter wagons to summit. Look at the vote history. A lot of this was under the guise of “making things interesting.” I do expect ghug to this as town to tbh, as he very much values close wagons at eod for information. But I didn’t love how he did it this game. He kicked the tires on many wagons - and at one point said something along the lines of “ive gotta go for a few hours, Tom, Flum make this interesting”. He wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting to potentially be the most suspicious if there was a town miskill that protected summit.

He did vote summit with 24 minutes left at a pivotal point. However, I do think he is the most likely busser here because of the wagons. Ghug has a high opinion of Maniac so he would need a good excuse to vote him D1 and that was the eod counter wagon to summit. He even questioned me saying something like “Maniac isn’t good enough to be in your do not kill D1 list?” He also could not avoid the lead wagons because of his strong known belief in how important it is for everyone to be on the main wagons late. I think he could have been cornered into bussing.

I think past that day, he kicks the tires on multiple wagons and for someone who says they are good at driving wagons he doesn’t do much of it. His most aggressive questioning has tended to come against people who aren’t really in danger (Durga, Vecna etc). He seems to be distancing himself from flips which is unlike him.

Very small thought I’m my mind also is how he engaged me on Alice In Chains - which I think may have been him probing to see if I was traitor and trying to give me an avenue to signal. This is likely nothing but it did strike me as a little awkward.

Finally, considering the flips I do think bussing was happening D1. I’ve explained why I don’t think you would throw summit onto the tracks. I townread HR. I townread Flum. That leaves flash, bozo, Durga and ghug as the most likely bussers. For reasons above I think ghug could have been forced into it.

Tom's case on scum!ghug came right before he was NK'd, and his points are pretty valid. He did avoid the summit wagon and encourage other ones D1, and the way bozo focused on Flum doing the same thing over ghug is pretty compelling. Ghug (and Durga) also continually questioned my bozo read D4.

If you actually read day one, summit was my preferred wagon for most of the day, and I moved back to him once a serious counterwagon formed. It's also consistent with my play in other days, which have mostly ended up town v town, and in other games, though you wouldn't know that.

Wasn't bozo saying both Flum and I were scummy? It's not like he was pushing Flum and then refusing to push me for doing the same thing.

Yes but this interaction that I had with bozo makes me think he was more interested in pushing a scumread on Flum than on you, even though I think it would have made more sense for him to scumread you based on D1 than for him to scumread Flum.

[Hellenic Riot]

Anyway, seeing as Bozo's response since finding out there's a gun has been to disappear into the aether and go so far under the radar he's turning into flash, I think it's about time the ##vote Bozo wagon got going again.

Why bozo???

You know what this should happen:

##vote worcej

Worcej because he appears to be coasting, as far as I've seen he's tried not to ruffle any feathers, which is out of character for him, I think he even mentioned he's null reading me, which I don't think has ever happened and him not actively trying to piss me off is sus. Pluuuus it'd be fun

I can't remember, has bozo been around since start of day?

I can't remember, has bozo been around since start of day?

Yes, but that really just proves my point: Why can nobody remember if Bozo has done anything?

Hmmmm. I remember thinking he was really townie d1 but he definitely has not been on my radar since. I mean, I haven't really been around but still.

Right, I actually remember him pushing Maniac, so unless all three of them are scum, what's the incentive for scum!bozo to keep voting scum!summit instead of moving his move to maniac when that was (theoretically) a viable miskill?

-------------------

So when I voted Bozo on gunshot day, Durga's *immediate* response was to simultaneously attempt to start a wagon 'for fun' on worcej, whilst launching into a defence of Bozo. Bearing in mind that she openly hadn't read the past two days of gameplay at the point of this happening - Which made the push on worcej bizarre enough in the first place... The defence on Bozo looks outright awful. Given that other people (such as Vecna) were agreeing with my points on Bozo at this time, this really looks horrible.

[ghug]

The fact that Tom and worcej both died the night after making cases on Bozo makes his leading the kill even more bizarre

What conclusion are you drawing here?


I've felt all day like if emc were town, scum would be making a push to save him, but HR being the one to do it doesn't make a ton of sense.

Why would scum try to save town!emc?

To seem like they're not complacent, and to look good after he flips.

[ghug]

Spending all game buddying me and making me trust you is rude.

Townreading you isn't buddying you.

It's not just the townreading, but you never questioned that read. I think the closest you got is saying you should look into it later and you didn't do that.

I've questioned it several times and then decided you're still probably town.

[Hellenic Riot]

I'm extremely sold on Nanook & Durga being scum now. Rereading all mentions of Bozo in isolation makes Donny look extremely town, because if he's scum then him & Bozo have been pushing a massive cross-bus for half the game... Pretty unlikely.

[ghug]

Tom's case on scum!ghug came right before he was NK'd, and his points are pretty valid. He did avoid the summit wagon and encourage other ones D1, and the way bozo focused on Flum doing the same thing over ghug is pretty compelling. Ghug (and Durga) also continually questioned my bozo read D4.

If you actually read day one, summit was my preferred wagon for most of the day, and I moved back to him once a serious counterwagon formed. It's also consistent with my play in other days, which have mostly ended up town v town, and in other games, though you wouldn't know that.

Wasn't bozo saying both Flum and I were scummy? It's not like he was pushing Flum and then refusing to push me for doing the same thing.

Yes but this interaction that I had with bozo makes me think he was more interested in pushing a scumread on Flum than on you, even though I think it would have made more sense for him to scumread you based on D1 than for him to scumread Flum.

I read that as you accepting the ghug argument and not the Flum one and him defending the Flum one.

[Hellenic Riot]

What conclusion are you drawing here?


I've felt all day like if emc were town, scum would be making a push to save him, but HR being the one to do it doesn't make a ton of sense.

Why would scum try to save town!emc?

To seem like they're not complacent, and to look good after he flips.

Given we're still feasibly at Myko (5 town, 3 mafia, 1 3P that might be able to side with scum) I'm not especially convinced scum wouldn't just rollercoast through on a town elimination today.

[ghug]

Anyway, seeing as Bozo's response since finding out there's a gun has been to disappear into the aether and go so far under the radar he's turning into flash, I think it's about time the ##vote Bozo wagon got going again.

Why bozo???

You know what this should happen:

##vote worcej

Worcej because he appears to be coasting, as far as I've seen he's tried not to ruffle any feathers, which is out of character for him, I think he even mentioned he's null reading me, which I don't think has ever happened and him not actively trying to piss me off is sus. Pluuuus it'd be fun

I can't remember, has bozo been around since start of day?

Yes, but that really just proves my point: Why can nobody remember if Bozo has done anything?

Hmmmm. I remember thinking he was really townie d1 but he definitely has not been on my radar since. I mean, I haven't really been around but still.

Right, I actually remember him pushing Maniac, so unless all three of them are scum, what's the incentive for scum!bozo to keep voting scum!summit instead of moving his move to maniac when that was (theoretically) a viable miskill?

-------------------

So when I voted Bozo on gunshot day, Durga's *immediate* response was to simultaneously attempt to start a wagon 'for fun' on worcej, whilst launching into a defence of Bozo. Bearing in mind that she openly hadn't read the past two days of gameplay at the point of this happening - Which made the push on worcej bizarre enough in the first place... The defence on Bozo looks outright awful. Given that other people (such as Vecna) were agreeing with my points on Bozo at this time, this really looks horrible.

This is compelling.

[kgray]

If you actually read day one, summit was my preferred wagon for most of the day, and I moved back to him once a serious counterwagon formed. It's also consistent with my play in other days, which have mostly ended up town v town, and in other games, though you wouldn't know that.

Also this is not accurate. You never mentioned a serious scumread on summit or engaged with him in a substantial way until you voted for him with 5 hours left in the day, when you said you liked him vs damo. Then you left that wagon 5 minutes later to vote for Chaqa. Then you're "bored" and go back to damo, then vote Vecna, then join the Nanook wagon when it was summit's counterwagon and finally voted summit with 28 minutes to go - still without ever having said you preferred his wagon or agreed with people scumreading him.

[ghug]

HR, the problem I have with the idea that bozo was defending emc the way you were is that he was much less vocal about it. He just came in near EoD to drop votes on the counterwagons. The point that emc isn't the one that exploded is compelling, but I think there are plausible explanations (traitor, WIFOM for example) for them to send another widely scumread player in bozo. I also feel like I did in that game where you connected yourself to emc, in that I scumread him heavily and have a hard time imagining us winning this game if we're wrong about him, so we should really just flip him.

We did lose that game because emc was town, so maybe it's not the best approach, but I was also right that we would lose it if he were town