M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[Fluminator]

Actually no
##vote bozo

[seth24c]

If you think someone can only be a traitor, it makes sense to hunt for other scum first in case one flips traitor on the way.
I guess it makes sense if you want the associative tells but Maniac is king of wifom.

Don’t like this. If someone is likely to be the traitor it definitely makes sense to get rid of them. Plus it has been said several times that maniac could either be the traitor or team mafia, I could see either at this point. Could also be talking about wifom in case maniac flips and there is anything incriminating on another scum player. Flum what is your read on maniac?

[Fluminator]

Can you requote your maniac case? It's hard on phone to find stuff

In addition to his D1/N1 potential traitor signaling and him not voting for summit D1, this is the bulk of it:

##vote Maniac

His thought progression this game makes ZERO sense, especially when you look at it in context of his D4 voting.

Here are his Vecna reads:

D2 Maniac townread Vecna for the timing of his summit vote and said it would take convincing for him to vote for Vecna. His "scumread" of Vecna came on D4 from what he apparently thought was a scumslip by Vecna in this exchange:

I believe in scumslips ##vote Vecna

although Maniac never explained why he thought Vecna scumslipped. He then voted for damo before Tom's gunshot EOD but said he'd switch to Vecna if that became a thing - again, with the only explanation of him changing from townreading Vecna to voting him being a "scumslip" that didn't happen.

He later includes Vecna in a list of people with sketchy D1 voting and a claim that Vecna wasn't bussing, even though he'd already townread Vecna *because* of his D1 voting. Just compare this post with this post.

Now, let's look at Maniac's read of flash:

In his EoD1 readslist, all he says about flash is that there's "not enough info." D2 he votes flash "for reasons." Begining of D4 he votes flash here because he thinks flash might be scum, and ends up back on flash's wagon with 14 minutes left.

BUT: At 6 minutes left, he changes from flash to Vecna, which puts Vecna in the lead, and then he rallies (or tries to rally) people to get on Vecna last-minute. There's literally no explanation of why he thought Vecna was scum OR why he thought flash is town.

Oh, and as soon as Vecna flips town he's suddenly okay with voting flash again.

I'd be more suspicious of Maniac voting flash, then almost instantly flipping his vote onto Vecna because he thought the flash voters were sketchy if it wasn't Town vs. Town

[Fluminator]

If you think someone can only be a traitor, it makes sense to hunt for other scum first in case one flips traitor on the way.
I guess it makes sense if you want the associative tells but Maniac is king of wifom.

Don’t like this. If someone is likely to be the traitor it definitely makes sense to get rid of them. Plus it has been said several times that maniac could either be the traitor or team mafia, I could see either at this point. Could also be talking about wifom in case maniac flips and there is anything incriminating on another scum player. Flum what is your read on maniac?

I don't think summit has the self confidence to fakeclaim a PR if the counterwagon is one of his scum friends.
I think Maniac is only traitor if he is, but I'm not convinced yet.

[Fluminator]

It does feel like HR is genuinely pushing his reads to me. When he's scum his pushed do often seem more insincere and manipulative.

[seth24c]

If you think someone can only be a traitor, it makes sense to hunt for other scum first in case one flips traitor on the way.
I guess it makes sense if you want the associative tells but Maniac is king of wifom.

Don’t like this. If someone is likely to be the traitor it definitely makes sense to get rid of them. Plus it has been said several times that maniac could either be the traitor or team mafia, I could see either at this point. Could also be talking about wifom in case maniac flips and there is anything incriminating on another scum player. Flum what is your read on maniac?

I don't think summit has the self confidence to fakeclaim a PR if the counterwagon is one of his scum friends.
I think Maniac is only traitor if he is, but I'm not convinced yet.

So who is your scum team at this point?

[Hellenic Riot]

There's always the possibility that Summit was annoyed at his team (possibly because of an early bus) and therefore made the CC despite the risk of it resulting in a teammate (Maniac) being eliminated just to stick his fingers up at them. Scum don't always play optimally, and given nothing else Summit did was optimal, I'm not completely convinced we can rule Maniac out as non-traitor scum based on the claim

[Donny Dude]

##vote bozo

[ghug]

I also think it's very likely that the Moscow wagon had at most one scum on it yesterday and was potentially scum-free, which makes the flash wagon bad news.

If you feel this is the case why do you think people who are considered stronger players such as, HR, Flum, kgray and yourself say still around even after being townread pretty much for the whole game? Why was worcej the night kill?

I don't think your general premise here is wrong, summit was probably bussed. I scumread bozo and emosc42, who both got towncred from summit's death. I have three scumreads for four slots, so there's probably at least one more in my nulls and light townreads.

The only death I really find weird, though, is worcej. The first three nights they killed PRs. Tom was a widely-townread member of the Moscow wagon too. I''m hesitant to read too much into one odd death, especially with many factors of the setup potentially influencing kills.

Why didn't you include bozo or Durga in that list of players?

[Jamiet99uk]

VOTE COUNT 6.4

e.m.c^42 (2) - ghug, Hellenic Riot
Maniac (2) - kgray, seth24c
seth24c (2) - bozotheclown, Nanook
bozotheclown (2) - Fluminator, Donny Dude
Nanook (1) - Maniac

NOBODY is scheduled to meet a comical demise.

5.5 hours remains in Day 6.

Durga and EMC must vote or I will be very disappointed.

[Durga]

I also think it's very likely that the Moscow wagon had at most one scum on it yesterday and was potentially scum-free, which makes the flash wagon bad news.

If you feel this is the case why do you think people who are considered stronger players such as, HR, Flum, kgray and yourself say still around even after being townread pretty much for the whole game? Why was worcej the night kill?

I don't think your general premise here is wrong, summit was probably bussed. I scumread bozo and emosc42, who both got towncred from summit's death. I have three scumreads for four slots, so there's probably at least one more in my nulls and light townreads.

The only death I really find weird, though, is worcej. The first three nights they killed PRs. Tom was a widely-townread member of the Moscow wagon too. I''m hesitant to read too much into one odd death, especially with many factors of the setup potentially influencing kills.

Why didn't you include bozo or Durga in that list of players?

You have to point out that Seth doesn't think I'm a strong player?

[bozotheclown]

Still feels like flimsy reasoning when so much else has happened this game. If you think I am scum who are my teammates? Who are your townreads?

See my previous post.

Do you think it is strange that scum hasn’t started flipping any of the highly townread people on the summit wagon? Why do you think that is?

They did NK Tom after the PRs, so N5 was the first night they would have made that decision, or possibly N1 with rdrivera as well. I think there are a few possibilities. If Fluminator and/or ghug were bussing summit, they could be keeping the others around for cover. Or, I could be wrong about other summit bussers, and they are keeping the others around for cover. It could be just that they thought worcej was a PR. Or maybe they anticipated your question would be asked and are tying to encourage DKs in the summit voters.

I think at least part of why worcej was the NK was that they knew he was not jailed. Fluminator, Durga, and emc (Moscow) were the summit voters who posted N5, do you think any of them could be scum?

[Durga]

I mean scum killed worcej because either they thought he was jailer or they wanted to throw people off

[Durga]

It does feel like HR is genuinely pushing his reads to me. When he's scum his pushed do often seem more insincere and manipulative.

What makes it genuine here? Like, what's the distinction for you? You think his push on Vecna was genuine? Why?

[bozotheclown]

With even number of players right before mylo, jailor should probably kill someone tonight.

I woke up feeling flash vs. Emc was Town vs. Town

##vote Donny
Will be around more soon

Do you not think it matters if the day ends at 7-3 or 6-4?

[Durga]

Does anyone think there's a chance kgray saw she rolled scum with summit again and decided he was a lost cause and just bussed hard? Or is this me being paranoid? Literally no one even suggested she might have been scum last time and now I'm getting worried because if there's an incredible deep threat it's her

[ghug]

Does anyone think there's a chance kgray saw she rolled scum with summit again and decided he was a lost cause and just bussed hard? Or is this me being paranoid? Literally no one even suggested she might have been scum last time and now I'm getting worried because if there's an incredible deep threat it's her

Can you tell me what she's like as scum? I've asked a couple times and not gotten any answer.

I think that's a plausible reason/way to bus in a vacuum, but everything she says feels town motivated.

[Hellenic Riot]

In the minigame where she was scum, she was widely townread but not really unquestionably so. I don't really think this time is comparable.

I can envisage pretty much anyone other than kgray or ghug being scum at this point though

[Durga]

Ghug I wasn't in that game so I didn't really read much but some of what I did read I remember thinking that if I didn't know she was scum I'd never be able to guess. That means nothing, obviously. I don't know why you've asked this question so much. Didn't she answer you herself?

[Maniac]

I wanted to look closely at D1 voting. It’s the only time we’ve snared scum so hopefully will yield the most information. Obviously I’m aware you guys don’t know my alignment for sure so some of this you’ll have to take on trust now and will then become more compelling to you all if I die. I don’t think I’m a good NK because I was the counter wagon on D1.
So with 2hrs 30mins to go on D1 Scum Summit votes for town Bunny. Making it:

Summit 7, Damo 4, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
Note at this point Summit choose not to vote for a counter wagon 2hrs 30mins from EOD. Was that so he could see who got closest to him and then jump on them later? Maybe he wanted some support from his scum buddies to start a fresh wagon idk.
Anywho, the next three votes from pure of heart TrPrado, Chaqa and Worcej bring the voting to
Summit 7, Damo 6, Chaqa 2, Maniac 2
With 2hrs to go Flum then moves off scum Summit and onto unknown Nannook. This ties the lead trains 6 v 6.
So this is the first suspect vote. Lets look at Flum.
Pg 3 – “I just realized I'm still invisible from when I was scum”
This is interesting. Was this a signal to Summit to take off his invisibility cloak?
Pg 9 – “##Vote Summit
His thing is set to invisible. Only scum do that.
Source: I did that as scum”
Pg 9 – “Ghug, Moscow join me.
First real wagon. If you join now we can be the town bloc going forward.”
Now this could be real bussing. Not only voting for summit but pushing others to join him. I think if Flum flips scum then Moscow/EMC & Ghug get a little town credit here.
Pg 39 – “I'll humour Vecna's desire for Summit to be free of pressure for now.

##Vote Damo”
This is interesting as Scum Flum could be setting up vecna to blame if town Damo got killed instead of scum Summit.
Pg 58 – “Summit/Damo/and even Chaqa are all acceptable wagons.
I'd prefer Summit quite a bit more than Damo or Chaqa right now though.”
Pg 58 – “Nanook would be a better counterwagon than Damo and Chaqa probably” [He doesn’t give any reason either here or elsewhere]
Pg 60 – “Damo and Chaqa have been acting pretty townie under pressure.”
Pg 60 – “##Vote Nanook” [Coming off Summit]
So Flum was saying Summit, Damo and Chaqa were all good kills, but he preferred Summit. Then said Nanook might make a better counter wagon than Damo/Chaqa, so came off his main read Summit to vote Nanook even though he was well behind an ‘acceptable’ kill Damo.
So in a scenario where Summit/Flum/Nanook are all scum, Flums actions make perfect sense. He has given a reason to vote for scum Summit but sees him likely to die. He moves to scum Nanook without giving any reasons because it reduces summit vote count by 1 and Nanook isn’t really under pressure. Flum know that final wagons are likely to be scum summit v either damo/chaqa/maniac at this point. Being off a main wagon gives him flexibility to make a late switch to either bus or save Summit.
As it happens within 30mins of voting Nanook Summit regains the lead easily. With summit on 7, Nan 4, Damo 3 and Chaqa 2 Flum realises that this could be scum v scum and bussing the most scummy makes better sense as they are likely to die soon anyway. He switches from Nanook to Summit
Once this bus decision is made he commits to it by trying to help drive the wafon. For instance by calling ghug across.
So TL;DR
Flum is scum. After he flips we should look much closer at Nanook who I also think could be scum
##vote Flum