M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[Vecna]

I totally agree that Summit won't claim if Maniac was scum. Yes, he can be traitor, but it's a less likely possibility, so I would give Maniac some credit.

On VCA, Ghug, Moscow and Tom get most towny points. Prado and Damo get most scummy points. Worcej also doesn't look good, but I still don't get scum vibes from him. And everybody already pointed this

Kgray is a solid town, she was the one giving a solid reason to scumread Summit, having played with scum Summit before. Flum reasoning is weird, but I don't see scum bussing that way. I would add Flash, HR and Durga to probably town (at least not people to worry at D2). The late voters are less towny as we should have some bussers.

My top scum suspects are now Prado, Bunny and Seth. Nannok also by elimination. Damo and Worcej could be fooling me, but I still townread them.

This was rdr's last reads post.
Interesting enough Nanook, Seth, Bunny and prado were all off-wagon or hopped on summit last-minute. I am thinking maybe it is because there was scum on his list.

I mean, most people have been scumreading at least 2-3 of that list so I don't know if this is really a huge find lol

and a scum donny also fits very well with him pointing out Rdrivera's last reads if thats the reason they killed him - (the locking in of reads, even though thatd not be a great sensible reason since those are rarely followed here).

[Maniac]

Few thoughts:
Tom looks good at EOD, 14 minutes out moving from Maniac – Summit when we were tied 8-8 is more likely to be Town motivated IMHO, yes people can bus, but this feels real to me.

Vecna also looks good. Seven minutes out and the day kill is far from certain and he makes summit kill very likely.

Bunny doesn’t look so good. If he is scum and he thinks another scum can maybe switch to save summit, he has given them the opportunity here by voting for maniac 4 mins out.

Damo doesn’t look great either.

Ghug & Moscow look town too, but we know looks can be deceiving.

Nothing Flum has done makes me question my theory that he tried to signal to me thinking I was the traitor.

I’ll happily vote Flum, Damo & Bunny.

I’ll take some convincing to vote Tom, Vecna, Ghug or Moscow.

[Vecna]

So, are you both going to just joke around.

Yes

k

interactions like this though.....make me feel im so wrong for even suspecting him again

[bozotheclown]

Everyone always scumreads me when I’m Town. I don’t know why. But the scum know the truth. I was expecting Chaq to die. And barring that, if they went PR hunting, I was thinking people who picked up my “I’m in Nirvana” from last game might see it this game.

It was pretty obvious that chaqa was in jail last night

Really? Why? Is the jailor going to protect him forever? Wouldn't the scum expect Chaq to be jailed and go after someone else so that jailing Chaq is a waste of 2 PRs?

I did not want to bring this up at the time because I thought you might just be trying to throw off the mafia, but I found it suspicious you did not acknowledge that Chaqa was jailed considering how much you talked about jailer strategies D2 in M59.

[BunnyGo]

Has anyone noticed that Moscow's voting pattern D1 in this game matches almost exactly to his pattern D1 in M59? Tom for a little, then summit for a little, (in M60 then Nanook), then damo and then another leading wagon.

[Vecna]

Is ghug going to be the only one to care that Bunny apparently went through the trouble of fake crumbing D1 to draw the night kill, and then seemingly outed himself as VT but making public his crumbs - which in turn would make him not draw the night kill after all??

I think ghugs post about Bunny potentially trying to get ahead of someone picking up on those fake crumbs is super plausible. Though the crumbs were obscure enough that I don’t know they were ever in danger of being found.

Care to point out the obscure crumbs? If he was actually crumbing bugs bunny theres not much point in continuing to try and draw the NK with softs of a Pr that is already dead.

On the other hand, if theyre too obscure to ever be spotted by scum, then his logic of wanting to draw the NK also seems like just an excuse for having a stronger fakeclaim down the line.

[Donny Dude]

Donny my Dude, did you even read the post?

Yes, I did, but Tom's followup to Bunngygo seemed towny.

I don't know what this is. Questioning "what is obvscum" and then Moscow doesn't give an answer. And then Donny says "oh. yeah, but his other post about Bunny isn't". It's weird.

@Donny: what's your read on Moscow?

neutral.
Some things from d1 that stand out are the complaints and the need for a cc.
Looking through theres nothing super solvy. He has some reads and then n1 comes up and he thanks others for doing the work.

[BunnyGo]

It was pretty obvious that chaqa was in jail last night

Really? Why? Is the jailor going to protect him forever? Wouldn't the scum expect Chaq to be jailed and go after someone else so that jailing Chaq is a waste of 2 PRs?

I did not want to bring this up at the time because I thought you might just be trying to throw off the mafia, but I found it suspicious you did not acknowledge that Chaqa was jailed considering how much you talked about jailer strategies D2 in M59.

Yes, I had hoped the jailor here would be thinking a little about it.

That said, it's different here. In 'The Lost Toons" the jailor could kill someone N1 and then revert to protector. Here, they can protect for a bit, and then revert to townclear at some point (in addition to being like a neighborizor for a network of potential townclears).

So the strategy isn't quite the same anymore. But the strategy for protecting as doc or jailor always is: if they *know* you'll be protecting someone, then you don't need to.

[Vecna]

Was thinking gerneally about potential busters of summit and I think kgray is pretty unlikely. She has shown she can definitely bus, but as someone who saw firsthand how summit struggled last time, I don’t think she would immediately throw him on the tracks this game.

I understand the angle of bussing the potential weak link, but I don’t know if kgray would be cold blooded enough to do that to someone she just played with as scum and saw struggle.

did she start before or after the "show offline" thing became a thing?

Not that im really suspicious of her whatsoever, but ill stick to my earlier observations that her play is actually a bit closer to how she reasons and plays as scum than as town.

3p is still something to keep in mind maybe, for much much later on, if she somehow remains unresolved.

[BunnyGo]

Is ghug going to be the only one to care that Bunny apparently went through the trouble of fake crumbing D1 to draw the night kill, and then seemingly outed himself as VT but making public his crumbs - which in turn would make him not draw the night kill after all??

I think ghugs post about Bunny potentially trying to get ahead of someone picking up on those fake crumbs is super plausible. Though the crumbs were obscure enough that I don’t know they were ever in danger of being found.

Care to point out the obscure crumbs? If he was actually crumbing bugs bunny theres not much point in continuing to try and draw the NK with softs of a Pr that is already dead.

On the other hand, if theyre too obscure to ever be spotted by scum, then his logic of wanting to draw the NK also seems like just an excuse for having a stronger fakeclaim down the line.

They were designed with a limited target audience in mind: worcej, Flum, kgray, Durga, maybe a couple others from M59. In that game when I was cop with a guilty scan on Gold, I talked about how I'd entered Nirvana as my only defense of my read. So here I just made a lot of Nirvana/Kurt Cobain references. So much so that Tom called out that Nirvana sucked and then we went down some side trail about Seattle bands.

[BunnyGo]

Yes

k

interactions like this though.....make me feel im so wrong for even suspecting him again

What about this is towny to you?

[BunnyGo]

Few thoughts:
Tom looks good at EOD, 14 minutes out moving from Maniac – Summit when we were tied 8-8 is more likely to be Town motivated IMHO, yes people can bus, but this feels real to me.

After he'd questioned me whether I'd be breaking the tie, why not leave it?

[Vecna]

He’s obviously not going to draw a night kill with those crumbs, but you only try to draw the NK as VT, so basically he is making it easier for scum to PR search by posting that - and I would think someone who supposedly tried to protect PRs would realize that.

As a devil's advocate type of counter-point, bunny has also reached the point where scum are not going to randomly NK him regardless for thinking he might be some -other- PR.

Trying to deduce bunnies alignment through this line of thought is something I wouldnt advice.

[Vecna]

He’s obviously not going to draw a night kill with those crumbs, but you only try to draw the NK as VT, so basically he is making it easier for scum to PR search by posting that - and I would think someone who supposedly tried to protect PRs would realize that.

Okay but my point is, if he was crumbing bugs and bugs just got flipped - then he can't really be a PR for scum to mis-target anyway? What PR crumbs a different PR?

Durga

[bozotheclown]

Really? Why? Is the jailor going to protect him forever? Wouldn't the scum expect Chaq to be jailed and go after someone else so that jailing Chaq is a waste of 2 PRs?

I did not want to bring this up at the time because I thought you might just be trying to throw off the mafia, but I found it suspicious you did not acknowledge that Chaqa was jailed considering how much you talked about jailer strategies D2 in M59.

Yes, I had hoped the jailor here would be thinking a little about it.

That said, it's different here. In 'The Lost Toons" the jailor could kill someone N1 and then revert to protector. Here, they can protect for a bit, and then revert to townclear at some point (in addition to being like a neighborizor for a network of potential townclears).

So the strategy isn't quite the same anymore. But the strategy for protecting as doc or jailor always is: if they *know* you'll be protecting someone, then you don't need to.

Yes, but without getting into whether jailing Chaqa was a good idea, what I question is that you did not realize Chaqa was jailed N1 when he was the only player that did not post.

[BunnyGo]

He’s obviously not going to draw a night kill with those crumbs, but you only try to draw the NK as VT, so basically he is making it easier for scum to PR search by posting that - and I would think someone who supposedly tried to protect PRs would realize that.

As a devil's advocate type of counter-point, bunny has also reached the point where scum are not going to randomly NK him regardless for thinking he might be some -other- PR.

Trying to deduce bunnies alignment through this line of thought is something I wouldnt advice.

Another person sees me! Man, maybe I *do* have a community here.

[Vecna]

Yeah, so obviously people are free to believe this or not, but for the record after the game: there's no way I'd have been so harsh on summit if he were my teammate. I genuinely like him and I felt bad about my push even though I was convinced he was scum.

When did webDip mafia get so wholesome?

Depends on the person. If worcej or Bunny were being obvscum I'd bus them into the ground in a heartbeat

Theres no way you would try to protect summit in the way you did that other game a time. Ill buy it that you'd be nicer about it (were you really mean? I dont think so?).

Anyways, whatever. I dont need to worry about your slot whatsoever.

[BunnyGo]

I did not want to bring this up at the time because I thought you might just be trying to throw off the mafia, but I found it suspicious you did not acknowledge that Chaqa was jailed considering how much you talked about jailer strategies D2 in M59.

Yes, I had hoped the jailor here would be thinking a little about it.

That said, it's different here. In 'The Lost Toons" the jailor could kill someone N1 and then revert to protector. Here, they can protect for a bit, and then revert to townclear at some point (in addition to being like a neighborizor for a network of potential townclears).

So the strategy isn't quite the same anymore. But the strategy for protecting as doc or jailor always is: if they *know* you'll be protecting someone, then you don't need to.

Yes, but without getting into whether jailing Chaqa was a good idea, what I question is that you did not realize Chaqa was jailed N1 when he was the only player that did not post.

Yeah, wasn't paying attention. Slammed this week and didn't care enough. Didn't expect Chaq to survive.

I *am* disappointed in myself that I didn't shut up at night to provide cover for jailor protector. That was dumb of me. I wish anyone from last game had remembered that and done it. Stupid bunny.

[Vecna]

Okay but my point is, if he was crumbing bugs and bugs just got flipped - then he can't really be a PR for scum to mis-target anyway? What PR crumbs a different PR?

Yes - but what I’m saying is that scum likely would not have pieced together his crumbs if he hadn’t announced it to the world. The act of doing so slims PR pool. It’s either bad play as town or scum, and I think bunny with a town perspective would not have narrowed the potential PR pool like thag

Okay. I think we're all on the same page now.

tldr Bunny is super suspect.

Lets see them crumbs! bunny youre here, find them for me will you?

[Vecna]

Bunny, when I went through your posts through the bot, the last reads list I could find had summit as null, myself as scum and kgray as nullish scum on D1.
Do you have any updates to that?
##vote Bunny

Besides the obvious (summit is scum) not really. Haven't done a lick of research except my iso of rdr. Still letting the data build. Trying to just let it flow over me while reading, but I'll stop and think more later. In the meantime, I'm pretty happy with my scumread on you.

this is an interesting interaction though, and it does not feel like bussing or drawing attention to a teammate for whatever reason, so getting a scumflip on either of these slots will look decent for the other.