M59 - Duck Season? - Game Thread

[Chaqa]

Rule 17 of mafia: any discussion of rule breaking will inevitably result in ChippeRock being mentioned.

[bozotheclown]

Really? What rule?

2. All players are forbidden from posting screenshots or text contents of ANY game-related communications.

I apparently missed a shit show, but yes I also agree that bringing the actual words used from a role post is indeed against the rules.

You were the other GM from M46 where ChippeRock posting his entire role PM in the game thread, which you ruled was legal.

It was partly because of what you and Jamie said in M46 that made me believe what I was posting was not only legal but not against the spirit of the rules. I find it hard to believe you 2 are now claiming I broke a rule.

[bo_sox48]

The sourness toward the setup is unwarranted when half of your team is dead by the beginning of D2. There's nothing a setup can do about that. Likewise, the setup did not have very much time to develop, at which time it would naturally swing back your direction. Town used their biggest advantage early, with the jailer using his kill. Town having both a cop and a doctor does not mean an imbalanced setup when you have a lawyer and a strongman (though perhaps the lawyer should have just been nightly use instead of X-time use), but if you don't have a strongman because they played too poorly to ever have a chance and a lawyer doesn't actually use his power early on when it is most valuable, then all of a sudden yes, you're a bit outgunned. The inventor holding instead of giving out an item might have been smart, as a clear can come around and, with the item thief dead, there was nothing stopping the inventor from handing a cleared PR a jacket or bomb making them pretty invincible without your knowledge.

The penalty for dying early as a mafia PR in a PR-driven setup is rather steep, but when the game can very quickly swing one way or another with items beginning on D2 that needs to be the case. The one strung out early needed to be the goon if someone was going to be in that position, else yes, you were in trouble. If the team could hold on, the advantage was going to swing to you naturally once you recruit your traitor, as you not only have an extra asset on your team that you can use but also daychat, which has proven to be a huge asset for the mafia team in days past for planning out how best to manipulate town in the later stages of the game. Again, your traitor's inability to show himself to you guys was a detriment to your team, one that could have been corrected to your advantage with better play from him. The item thief surviving would have heavily negated the inventor's or town's ability to wait until later to use items when they have more information, and the strongman would have allowed you to kill a PR even if they're cleared. Really the goal for your team needed to be survive the first couple of days, find a PR or two to stifle with your factional roleblock or nightkill, and then allow these advantages to be realized. Your team didn't do that, and it put you in a hole you had no chance of recovering from even if the game wasn't paused.

All that said, Jamie and I are going to make some tweaks for M59.5. The cop is going to be replaced with another role with less certainty about it, details TBD. The jailer will exist with a kill, but after killing will no longer have a power to jail anymore. The inventor will have a chance to give all three items if the inventor role is in the game again, which makes it even more swingy. But if the mafia PRs are on the block early, they're going to be in trouble. That's an artifact of a setup where your PRs are there to negate town's early advantages.

[Jamiet99uk]

2. All players are forbidden from posting screenshots or text contents of ANY game-related communications.

I apparently missed a shit show, but yes I also agree that bringing the actual words used from a role post is indeed against the rules.

You were the other GM from M46 where ChippeRock posting his entire role PM in the game thread, which you ruled was legal.

It was partly because of what you and Jamie said in M46 that made me believe what I was posting was not only legal but not against the spirit of the rules. I find it hard to believe you 2 are now claiming I broke a rule.

I did not say that you broke a rule. I am less certain on this point. I remarked that Bo_Sox took the view that you broke it, as he was not here to comment himself. I see that he is now here, so he is welcome to add to this element of the discussion if he so wishes.

[bo_sox48]

I did not think what I did violated any rules. For one, rule 2 for this game states:

"2. All players are forbidden from posting screenshots of ANY game-related communications."

So adding in "or text comments" obviously changes the rule. With that change, it seems it would be a violation to even claim your role or claim VT if your role PM says you are a VT.

Second, I did not post any "text contents" from my role PM.

Finally, I believe we have had this conversation before during M46 when I felt ChippeRock had broken the rule by posting his entire role PM in the game thread, and you explained to me after I was out of the game why you did not believe ChippeRock had violated a rule.

I'd rather I take the blame for fucking up than pass the blame to you. I don't really like how nitpicky this game gets, because it can expose minor mistakes, but it's not really your fault that you found it. It's mine. I initially cited this rule privately with Jamie as a way to try and pass the blame off because it's annoying to admit that it's my fault, but it is my fault and we don't need to go any deeper than that in ascribing blame.

That said, if the role PM you received doesn't match the role PM in the OP, or if you notice some mistake by the GM that could, if spiraled, compromise the game, it would be great if we could just get notified so it can be fixed instead of posting about it. It's really not a big deal if you have a miniscule advantage; we've played through those before and they're just a fact of human GMs that can make mistakes. But if it can be fixed without being exposed and messing things up, that's best. The reason beyond just using the wrong document with the wrong text for sending role PMs that this blew out of proportion like it did and the game was compromised is because I was not online to correct it in the moment it was revealed, which is when I could have clarified and not allowed people to clear themselves or show themselves not to be VTs by their reactions. I just wasn't online to do that until later.

[bo_sox48]

I'm not sure if we have enough people to start another game right now given 3 have dropped out and we have no more subs. If you're going to play the next game, can you say so explicitly here? We need it to be clear who is available.

[Chaqa]

I'm not sure if we have enough people to start another game right now given 3 have dropped out and we have no more subs. If you're going to play the next game, can you say so explicitly here? We need it to be clear who is available.

I'm able/willing to play now.

[summit_fever]

Count me in.

[kgray]

I think this is up to date:

1. Durga - YES
2. Vecna - YES
3. kgray - YES
4. Hellenic Riot - YES
5. worcej - YES
6. damo666 - YES
7. bozotheclown - YES
8. summit_fever - YES
9. Fluminator - YES
10. Chaqa - YES
11. BunnyGo - YES
12 - TrPrado - YES

13. rdrivera2005
14. seth24c
15. foodcoats
16. MoscowFleet
17. hthefourth
18. flash2015
19. yavuzovic
20. e.m.c^42
21.

[bo_sox48]

I'm not sure if we have enough people to start another game right now given 3 have dropped out and we have no more subs. If you're going to play the next game, can you say so explicitly here? We need it to be clear who is available.

I'm able/willing to play now.

If you're in, and if ghug is in after the weekend (which I believe is when he would have been available to sub), we might be able to make it work? I think three have dropped so far, in addition to those subbed out.

[goldfinger0303]

The sourness toward the setup is unwarranted when half of your team is dead by the beginning of D2. There's nothing a setup can do about that. Likewise, the setup did not have very much time to develop, at which time it would naturally swing back your direction. Town used their biggest advantage early, with the jailer using his kill. Town having both a cop and a doctor does not mean an imbalanced setup when you have a lawyer and a strongman (though perhaps the lawyer should have just been nightly use instead of X-time use), but if you don't have a strongman because they played too poorly to ever have a chance and a lawyer doesn't actually use his power early on when it is most valuable, then all of a sudden yes, you're a bit outgunned. The inventor holding instead of giving out an item might have been smart, as a clear can come around and, with the item thief dead, there was nothing stopping the inventor from handing a cleared PR a jacket or bomb making them pretty invincible without your knowledge.

The penalty for dying early as a mafia PR in a PR-driven setup is rather steep, but when the game can very quickly swing one way or another with items beginning on D2 that needs to be the case. The one strung out early needed to be the goon if someone was going to be in that position, else yes, you were in trouble. If the team could hold on, the advantage was going to swing to you naturally once you recruit your traitor, as you not only have an extra asset on your team that you can use but also daychat, which has proven to be a huge asset for the mafia team in days past for planning out how best to manipulate town in the later stages of the game. Again, your traitor's inability to show himself to you guys was a detriment to your team, one that could have been corrected to your advantage with better play from him. The item thief surviving would have heavily negated the inventor's or town's ability to wait until later to use items when they have more information, and the strongman would have allowed you to kill a PR even if they're cleared. Really the goal for your team needed to be survive the first couple of days, find a PR or two to stifle with your factional roleblock or nightkill, and then allow these advantages to be realized. Your team didn't do that, and it put you in a hole you had no chance of recovering from even if the game wasn't paused.

All that said, Jamie and I are going to make some tweaks for M59.5. The cop is going to be replaced with another role with less certainty about it, details TBD. The jailer will exist with a kill, but after killing will no longer have a power to jail anymore. The inventor will have a chance to give all three items if the inventor role is in the game again, which makes it even more swingy. But if the mafia PRs are on the block early, they're going to be in trouble. That's an artifact of a setup where your PRs are there to negate town's early advantages.

My objections are less to do with the town PRs and more to do with which PRs were chosen given the setup. A witch doctor or tracker would've been a better balanced role, given that a doc/cop was already chosen (basically *one should be a non-guarantee). And given that PRs+3P can potentially, collectively, clear 8 people in a 21 person setup....the risk of a massclaim is high. You're pretty much vulnerable to it on D1 because the clears leave it down to 5 scum vs 8 VT. TBH if I was town I would've pushed a D1 claim on the chance the 3P flipped the other role. Narrowing the daykill pool to 13 is hugely advantageous, and with cop scans and items going out and a jailor....scum would be toast.

[bo_sox48]

I think this is up to date:

1. Durga - YES
2. Vecna - YES
3. kgray - YES
4. Hellenic Riot - YES
5. worcej - YES
6. damo666 - YES
7. bozotheclown - YES
8. summit_fever - YES
9. Fluminator - YES
10. Chaqa - YES
11. BunnyGo - YES
12 - TrPrado - YES

13. rdrivera2005
14. seth24c
15. foodcoats
16. MoscowFleet
17. hthefourth
18. flash2015
19. yavuzovic
20. e.m.c^42
21.

Great, we'll work off of this. Thanks.

[e.m.c^42]

Ah, keep me as a sub.

[bozotheclown]

I apparently missed a shit show, but yes I also agree that bringing the actual words used from a role post is indeed against the rules.

You were the other GM from M46 where ChippeRock posting his entire role PM in the game thread, which you ruled was legal.

It was partly because of what you and Jamie said in M46 that made me believe what I was posting was not only legal but not against the spirit of the rules. I find it hard to believe you 2 are now claiming I broke a rule.

I did not say that you broke a rule. I am less certain on this point. I remarked that Bo_Sox took the view that you broke it, as he was not here to comment himself. I see that he is now here, so he is welcome to add to this element of the discussion if he so wishes.

Sorry, I misread your post.

[BunnyGo]

The sourness toward the setup is unwarranted when half of your team is dead by the beginning of D2. There's nothing a setup can do about that. Likewise, the setup did not have very much time to develop, at which time it would naturally swing back your direction. Town used their biggest advantage early, with the jailer using his kill. Town having both a cop and a doctor does not mean an imbalanced setup when you have a lawyer and a strongman (though perhaps the lawyer should have just been nightly use instead of X-time use), but if you don't have a strongman because they played too poorly to ever have a chance and a lawyer doesn't actually use his power early on when it is most valuable, then all of a sudden yes, you're a bit outgunned. The inventor holding instead of giving out an item might have been smart, as a clear can come around and, with the item thief dead, there was nothing stopping the inventor from handing a cleared PR a jacket or bomb making them pretty invincible without your knowledge.

The penalty for dying early as a mafia PR in a PR-driven setup is rather steep, but when the game can very quickly swing one way or another with items beginning on D2 that needs to be the case. The one strung out early needed to be the goon if someone was going to be in that position, else yes, you were in trouble. If the team could hold on, the advantage was going to swing to you naturally once you recruit your traitor, as you not only have an extra asset on your team that you can use but also daychat, which has proven to be a huge asset for the mafia team in days past for planning out how best to manipulate town in the later stages of the game. Again, your traitor's inability to show himself to you guys was a detriment to your team, one that could have been corrected to your advantage with better play from him. The item thief surviving would have heavily negated the inventor's or town's ability to wait until later to use items when they have more information, and the strongman would have allowed you to kill a PR even if they're cleared. Really the goal for your team needed to be survive the first couple of days, find a PR or two to stifle with your factional roleblock or nightkill, and then allow these advantages to be realized. Your team didn't do that, and it put you in a hole you had no chance of recovering from even if the game wasn't paused.

All that said, Jamie and I are going to make some tweaks for M59.5. The cop is going to be replaced with another role with less certainty about it, details TBD. The jailer will exist with a kill, but after killing will no longer have a power to jail anymore. The inventor will have a chance to give all three items if the inventor role is in the game again, which makes it even more swingy. But if the mafia PRs are on the block early, they're going to be in trouble. That's an artifact of a setup where your PRs are there to negate town's early advantages.

My objections are less to do with the town PRs and more to do with which PRs were chosen given the setup. A witch doctor or tracker would've been a better balanced role, given that a doc/cop was already chosen (basically *one should be a non-guarantee). And given that PRs+3P can potentially, collectively, clear 8 people in a 21 person setup....the risk of a massclaim is high. You're pretty much vulnerable to it on D1 because the clears leave it down to 5 scum vs 8 VT. TBH if I was town I would've pushed a D1 claim on the chance the 3P flipped the other role. Narrowing the daykill pool to 13 is hugely advantageous, and with cop scans and items going out and a jailor....scum would be toast.

Question about the protector 3P:

If they just claim D1: I'm the protector 3P and this other person is whom I need to keep alive to the end. Then:

1) Town get 2 townclears
2) Scum know not to NK the protected one, because they are invincible.
3) If Scum *WANT* to screw with the 3P by trying, it is against their wincon
4) Scum could CC, but it costs them at least one member, and can be confirmed by the 3P by self immolating (which doesn't negate their wincon).

What am I missing?

[kgray]

Question about the protector 3P:

If they just claim D1: I'm the protector 3P and this other person is whom I need to keep alive to the end. Then:

1) Town get 2 townclears
2) Scum know not to NK the protected one, because they are invincible.
3) If Scum *WANT* to screw with the 3P by trying, it is against their wincon
4) Scum could CC, but it costs them at least one member, and can be confirmed by the 3P by self immolating (which doesn't negate their wincon).

What am I missing?

Scum could get a gun?

Also that doesn't sound very fun for the protected townie tbh

[BunnyGo]

Question about the protector 3P:

If they just claim D1: I'm the protector 3P and this other person is whom I need to keep alive to the end. Then:

1) Town get 2 townclears
2) Scum know not to NK the protected one, because they are invincible.
3) If Scum *WANT* to screw with the 3P by trying, it is against their wincon
4) Scum could CC, but it costs them at least one member, and can be confirmed by the 3P by self immolating (which doesn't negate their wincon).

What am I missing?

Scum could get a gun?

Also that doesn't sound very fun for the protected townie tbh

Even with gun, is it to scum's wincon to shoot townie? Maybe...

Does 3P just play like the RR then? Make clear their townread and claim before we DK them?

[BunnyGo]

Question about the protector 3P:

If they just claim D1: I'm the protector 3P and this other person is whom I need to keep alive to the end. Then:

1) Town get 2 townclears
2) Scum know not to NK the protected one, because they are invincible.
3) If Scum *WANT* to screw with the 3P by trying, it is against their wincon
4) Scum could CC, but it costs them at least one member, and can be confirmed by the 3P by self immolating (which doesn't negate their wincon).

What am I missing?

Scum could get a gun?

Also that doesn't sound very fun for the protected townie tbh

And the 3P or the cleared townie are good targets for a gun I guess. Maybe good targets to steal.

[kgray]

Question about the protector 3P:

If they just claim D1: I'm the protector 3P and this other person is whom I need to keep alive to the end. Then:

1) Town get 2 townclears
2) Scum know not to NK the protected one, because they are invincible.
3) If Scum *WANT* to screw with the 3P by trying, it is against their wincon
4) Scum could CC, but it costs them at least one member, and can be confirmed by the 3P by self immolating (which doesn't negate their wincon).

What am I missing?

Scum could get a gun?

Also that doesn't sound very fun for the protected townie tbh

Even with gun, is it to scum's wincon to shoot townie? Maybe...

Does 3P just play like the RR then? Make clear their townread and claim before we DK them?

Yeah I think scum always want to kill someone who isn't going to get daykilled, so they definitely want to shoot a confirmed town. The only reason I can think of not to is if there's also a confirmed PR.

That's probably what I'd do as that role. It's basically just a townie with extra info, but it's a little harder because if people notice you making unjustified townreads you might draw suspicion. Kind of like Macca did with HR lol

[TrPrado]

Ah shit maybe claiming defender would have drawn that N1 kill I wanted