MAFIA XXXVI: ODDJOB'S REVENGE

[RagingIke297]

@RagingIke, are you going to vote today? If not, why?

It looks like no one opposes me voting, so I will.

[Balki Bartokomous]

@RagingIke, are you going to vote today? If not, why?

It looks like no one opposes me voting, so I will.

Okay, well then backtrack for me. Why were you suggesting that you would not cast a vote? And why does it change your thinking that "no one opposes" you voting?

[Balki Bartokomous]

@TrPrado, I do not support an Ezio lynch.

Also, I don't think that votes are very fixed right now. I think the situation is fluid. I haven't heard any strong case today.

@Snowy -- come on man. If you are town, it's time to TOWN.

[RagingIke297]

@RagingIke, are you going to vote today? If not, why?

It looks like no one opposes me voting, so I will.

Okay, well then backtrack for me. Why were you suggesting that you would not cast a vote? And why does it change your thinking that "no one opposes" you voting?

For lack of a better way to explain it, I feel like my vote according to everyone else would have been tainted. It would have had a 50/50 chance of being a scum vote in the eyes of everyone else, which is much more than the chance of a regular vote. I was offering to not vote since my vote has a higher probability of being scum. No one seems to care that that's the way it is and are all encouraging me to vote despite that, so I'll vote.

[teacher2]

When you say that you think I misrepresent you, are you thinking that I'm doing something sinister here? Just checking to see your interpretation of it. I obviously did not lay out the entire sequence in quotes, but I think I presented it fairly.

I need the board to check me, because Im not a good judge of the clarity of my own writing, but yes I thought your opening post was both unfair and sinister.

Like I said, I dont see how my initial reads post could possibly be "quite favorable." I also dont see how I got on bozo "without explanation" -- when I was explicitly relying on "meta" -- indeed a meta case made in part by you.

To be brief, I view your first post as misdirecting and trying to draw up suspicions. Im not likely to vote the RB claim today, at least until the newbs learn to cc, but your post didnt improve my personal scumlean from overnight (reinforced by xorxes).

But I really would like the board to tell me if Im off and yours was in fact a fair read.

[DemonRHK]

6. DemonRHK (-7) – Probably a little bit of OMGUS, but this dude needs to quit going after me or come after me with a solid case. If you really are PR throwing a temper tantrum and borderline refusing to play helps no one. Which I’m not doing and haven’t gotten an answer as to where my tantrum was. He aldo said that I asked someone who to vote for when I clearly haven’t. Alright so maybe a lot of OMGUS, but I’m not seeing any effort since he went after me.

You are correct, Upon reread, you did not ask who to vote for. That’s what I get for #MobileGaming

What you actually asked is ‘should I vote today’, which unless you’re part of a demographic that prefers the taste of Elmer’s to Coke or Pepsi, is a resounding fucking YES.

I stand by the tantrum. It may not have been to the levels of me, Krellin, OldJamie, or Brain. At the start of the day you were self hedging a large amount of posts. ‘What does it matter if I even vote?’ ‘It doesn’t prove I’m Town or scum’

Why even say shit like that? If you want to prove your alignment, fight for it! Don’t try this self-imposed pariah crap. That’s what I’m getting at

[Balki Bartokomous]

Okay, well then backtrack for me. Why were you suggesting that you would not cast a vote? And why does it change your thinking that "no one opposes" you voting?

For lack of a better way to explain it, I feel like my vote according to everyone else would have been tainted. It would have had a 50/50 chance of being a scum vote in the eyes of everyone else, which is much more than the chance of a regular vote. I was offering to not vote since my vote has a higher probability of being scum. No one seems to care that that's the way it is and are all encouraging me to vote despite that, so I'll vote.

So here is the thing, RagingIke --

When you are Scum, you are supposed to pretend that you are Town. So, you have to put yourself in the shoes of Town RagingIke. If you would have done that, you'd understand that Town RagingIke KNOWS HIS VOTE IS A TOWN VOTE! Town RagingIke would know his alignment. As a matter of fact, Town RagingIke would know that he is an effing PR. Why would Town RagingIke take his vote off the table -- the single vote in the world that Town RagingIke knows to be coming from a town place -- just because other people (some of whom may be Scum) said that they suspect Town RagingIke is Scum?

I do not understand how you could be Town RagingIke and come to that conclusion.

Help us understand or admit that you're caught and you just stopped trying.

[teacher2]

absolve himself through flagellance

Im a language nerd and curious - is this a common UK form? Were you making a flatulence joke? (kudos). Are you non-native speaker?

Im against lynching newbies early, and Im not going to you as the first newby (hi Stressed ). Im happy to try to explain any of my short-forms I use or the theories behind them. Id just love to see more of you (and Stressed - if you agree with a theory only one person is backing, it really helps to join the chorus. Mafia can ensure they are echoed if needed. Town needs help.

That said, I generally come online, read, react, and post those reactions for what they are worth. Its doing the reads lists that forces the reevaluation and deeper thinking. So my guess is that I am a mix of quality.

[teacher2]

@Board: genuine question. Where I come from it is viewed as poor form to answer a question directed to another, as it could be the questioner could be looking for information about the questioned from the answer/form of answer, rather than just the answer itself. How is that viewed here?

[DemonRHK]

@Board: genuine question. Where I come from it is viewed as poor form to answer a question directed to another, as it could be the questioner could be looking for information about the questioned from the answer/form of answer, rather than just the answer itself. How is that viewed here?

Depends on a case by case but I generally see it as shielding / protecting

[RagingIke297]

Okay, well then backtrack for me. Why were you suggesting that you would not cast a vote? And why does it change your thinking that "no one opposes" you voting?

For lack of a better way to explain it, I feel like my vote according to everyone else would have been tainted. It would have had a 50/50 chance of being a scum vote in the eyes of everyone else, which is much more than the chance of a regular vote. I was offering to not vote since my vote has a higher probability of being scum. No one seems to care that that's the way it is and are all encouraging me to vote despite that, so I'll vote.

So here is the thing, RagingIke --

When you are Scum, you are supposed to pretend that you are Town. So, you have to put yourself in the shoes of Town RagingIke. If you would have done that, you'd understand that Town RagingIke KNOWS HIS VOTE IS A TOWN VOTE! Town RagingIke would know his alignment. As a matter of fact, Town RagingIke would know that he is an effing PR. Why would Town RagingIke take his vote off the table -- the single vote in the world that Town RagingIke knows to be coming from a town place -- just because other people (some of whom may be Scum) said that they suspect Town RagingIke is Scum?

I do not understand how you could be Town RagingIke and come to that conclusion.

Help us understand or admit that you're caught and you just stopped trying.

I'm not trying to think in terms of myself, I care what other town people think. I know that I'm town ragingike, but again only 6 people know that. Therefore if a majority of the other 13 people in the game believed that I am indeed scum and my vote shouldn't be cast because there is no way of knowing if I would cast for town or scum then I was going to not vote. Out of everyone in the game my vote (IMO) should be most likely to be scum in every other townies eyes, therefore if not voting was the course of action the other town members decided I needed to respect the wishes of my teammates.

However that is not the case and I will be voting today since literally no one has shared my train of thought

[Balki Bartokomous]

@Board: genuine question. Where I come from it is viewed as poor form to answer a question directed to another, as it could be the questioner could be looking for information about the questioned from the answer/form of answer, rather than just the answer itself. How is that viewed here?

I'd say "use your discretion." It depends on the context.

If someone says to Jamiet: "Please tell me what you meant by X," and very little time has passed, it would be bad form to go and say "I think what Jamiet meant was Y." In that context, the person asking the question was not looking for any possible explanation of X, they wanted Jamiet's explanation. And chiming in with a possible explanation could taint Jamiet's response.

But there are other questions that anyone might answer, even if posed to someone else. E.g., "who cast the deciding vote on Bozo?" "What does 'fearkill' mean?" "Why would mafia kill Xorxes?" "When should cop claim?" where it doesn't really call for a unique explanation from someone specifically.

Seems entirely contextual, and I'm sure it's the kind of thing on which there would be plenty of disagreements.

Were you thinking there might be a hard and fast rule or norm? I'd say -- I think I can recall someone here complaining that "Hey -- I obviously wanted an answer only from Person X," but there's nothing unique about this forum with regard to that question.

(probably more of an essay than you wanted or needed)

[TrPrado]

So I've been looking at the results for some time and all I can seem to piece together about the EoN is that:
a) scum don't believe Ike is a PR, and
b) they're fine letting town know they don't believe the claim

This makes me wary of the idea of pursuing him as a possible lynch. I don't think they'd let their own out to dry like that. If we're talking about an amateur scum team, then he certainly would have the experience to try and right the course, wouldn't he?

I have no idea why they'd play their hands so openly, but I pretty safely think Ike is town now. Though I do want to know:

Ike: Why were you leaving whether or not you voted today up to other people's desires? It's a requirement of the game. Also can you explain a bit where the points in your recent reads post came from?

teacher: Now that there's time and less urgency, there were a few points on your reads list, particularly around the end, where you said you didn't have time to elaborate due to proximity to the deadline. Can you finish that up now?

Telamor: I think Demon kind of hit my points on the head, though I disagree to some extent on your not being active being scum-indicative, but I feel I should elaborate a bit more. I look at confidence vs assent for players who are new to the meta of this site. That doesn't even necessarily mean you have to be super active or assertive or even avoid saying "stupid things to make [yourself] look like scum." Because of that latter bit, I've actually been on the side of defending a lot of new players who ended up being unjustly killed by lynch and turned out being town. I consistently catch flak for the standards I use in cases of new players, but those standards frequently end up making me correct.

Demon: In your night reads you mentioned that xorxes and I likely had inverse roles. Now that xorxes has flipped as town, that would squarely put me as scum, correct? Did that evaporate? Is there a reason you haven't pressured me or followed up?

DrCJG, ghug, yavuz, Telamor, and also Jamie: So this is (or was) just a pressure to get him to participate more? Can I hear a bit of clear thoughts of what each of you thought about his behavior at the end of Day 1? Can I hear why you think voting for lurkers is valuable after we've already moved onto D2? Or why Ezio is the one you feel (or felt) should be pressured?

Stressedlines: At your own pace, I would appreciate hearing why you think snowy is our best option to lynch right now.

darg and teacher: A bit more firm because you're both more active than Stressed, what's the case on snowy?

peter: Why would scum Balki be so blatant in claiming an RB that was holstered when it was pretty obvious people's eyebrows would be raised?

Jamie: You've been pretty consistent in your push on peter, what aside from about his having logic you disagree with is inherently scummy? What prior to his push on Balki really stood out to you about him?

##VOTE JAMIE
Not only everything he's said but also for buying into snowy's ridiculous joke about Ike's post saying he isn't retracting his PR claim being awkward, and also being entirely unable to explain why he was on the Ezio wagon. Can't really claim you're a properly prolific poster if you can't make a post explaining why you think someone should be lynched.

[TrPrado]

When you say that you think I misrepresent you, are you thinking that I'm doing something sinister here? Just checking to see your interpretation of it. I obviously did not lay out the entire sequence in quotes, but I think I presented it fairly.

I need the board to check me, because Im not a good judge of the clarity of my own writing, but yes I thought your opening post was both unfair and sinister.

Like I said, I dont see how my initial reads post could possibly be "quite favorable." I also dont see how I got on bozo "without explanation" -- when I was explicitly relying on "meta" -- indeed a meta case made in part by you.

To be brief, I view your first post as misdirecting and trying to draw up suspicions. Im not likely to vote the RB claim today, at least until the newbs learn to cc, but your post didnt improve my personal scumlean from overnight (reinforced by xorxes).

But I really would like the board to tell me if Im off and yours was in fact a fair read.

No, I don't think it's particularly misrepresentative. I don't think "lurk noted" was a particularly essential thing so the omission doesn't seem like a big deal, and I think it's more than understandable not to consider what you said as an explanation because it wasn't your own words, just borrowing ideas from others.

[thamrick]

Didn't have as much time as I thought I would tonight and I work from 8am-5pm EST tomorrow so I'll only have an hour at most before EoD tomorrow.

Read through Balki and xorxes D1 looking for info on why xorxes was killed or why Balki might have been RB'ed.

Balki -

-posted his weird "encrypted" message post. I took it as a joke, since it was probably a rules violation otherwise.

I think rdrivera is town. My thinking on this is for secret and mysterious reasons that I will not divulge at this time.

-"mysterious reasons" could hint at him being cop who would have evidence later.

That's about all I could find. And none of it is particularly strong.

xorxes -

-when ghug asked him to name all the players, he said "what's the conclusion from this exercise?" Exercise is healthy? Could refer to being the doc?

That's really all I see from xorxes ISO. Doesn't explain the N1 actions. If scum somehow did come to these conclusions, the actions don't follow. Scum would NK cop-read over doc-read all day every day.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Didn't have as much time as I thought I would tonight and I work from 8am-5pm EST tomorrow so I'll only have an hour at most before EoD tomorrow.

Read through Balki and xorxes D1 looking for info on why xorxes was killed or why Balki might have been RB'ed.

Balki -

-posted his weird "encrypted" message post. I took it as a joke, since it was probably a rules violation otherwise.

I think rdrivera is town. My thinking on this is for secret and mysterious reasons that I will not divulge at this time.

-"mysterious reasons" could hint at him being cop who would have evidence later.

That's about all I could find. And none of it is particularly strong.

xorxes -

-when ghug asked him to name all the players, he said "what's the conclusion from this exercise?" Exercise is healthy? Could refer to being the doc?

That's really all I see from xorxes ISO. Doesn't explain the N1 actions. If scum somehow did come to these conclusions, the actions don't follow. Scum would NK cop-read over doc-read all day every day.

One note on your Scum NK analysis:

I know what I would try to do as scum. I would be shooting for Cop. Where I wasn’t sure who the PRs are, I would prioritize players who I consider to be strong, while also trying to make sure I dodged the Doc save.

Based on those criteria, I think the Xorxes save makes some sense, and I understand why I was likely RBed and not NKed. I think I was a fairly likely Doc Save target, whereas Xorxes was almost surely not a Doc save target because he had a lot of suspicion on him.

[teacher2]

teacher: Now that there's time and less urgency, there were a few points on your reads list, particularly around the end, where you said you didn't have time to elaborate due to proximity to the deadline. Can you finish that up now?

Only in short form. I make a 20 minute slide show for mothers day and only 12 are done. I think all that were left were Yavu and you, given Xorxes flip. Yavu I covered earlier today with a slight scum lean but not seeing strong associations. You have many associations, most strongly with ghug but also surprisingly strong defense of peterlund -- including now the second time youre voting Jamie, and steering conversations in terms of good questions, but not giving out info yourself.

darg and teacher: A bit more firm because you're both more active than Stressed, what's the case on snowy?

Scummiest person on the Bozo wagon. repeatedly joined wagons (ghug, reedeer) without giving reasons but when they seemed popular (either by vote or by contemporaneous discussion). Not talking. Associational with Demon(-) and ghug(+) so flip informs their slots. Im not hard sold on it (that was a rushed post as leaving the office). Just dont have any place better to go yet since Im getting better on Peter and wanted to see more out of you.

[TrPrado]

You have many associations, most strongly with ghug but also surprisingly strong defense of peterlund -- including now the second time youre voting Jamie, and steering conversations in terms of good questions, but not giving out info yourself.

What sort of information are you expecting me to give out?

[DemonRHK]

(Drunk Post)

Honestly Prado, it’s mostlt because while the early D1 puts you at odds with xorx it’s due to the defend and attack on Ike. With Ike as an unknown, it’s hard to tell, plus a kinda quiet D2 thus far imo has left much bigger fish to fry (snowy, stressed) and your scummyness was simply a D1 link read. TBH I’m gonna be trying something dumb tomorrow since I’m off and have nothing better to do than go over a fuck ton of posts for no reason.

In short: Conpared to better scumreads I’m not as sure of ya

[RagingIke297]

@telamor, why are you voting for Ezio right now?