MAFIA LVIII (58) - WITCHFINDER GENERAL - GAME THREAD

[Hamilton Brian]

I assume you are talking to trprado and not me

There has been shit I've said, contradictory, and the "are you really that thick" that I've referred to myself. I think TrP is projecting.

I'm still confused, you're calling yourself anti-town?

Fuck!! No!!

[Hamilton Brian]

Let’s call it Brian drunk on a Tuesday night. Tomorrow doesn’t look much better.

[rdrivera2005]

If TrPrado is mafia, that was a very convincing bus of Chaqa. I reviewed 2 games where TrPrado was mafia, M36 and M50, and he only voted for his teammates when they were confirmed guilty with one exception, D7 of M36, where he did place a tie breaking vote on his teammate, although it was well before EOD.

How people have time to dig old games? I can't even re-read this one.

I think we should keep things simple now. If we fail to hit scum in the next days we can start conspiracy theories, but now we should look to the most simple explanations

I don't think there is scum on the first Chaqa voters. It was a fast movement closer to EOD, I don't think scum will join it so fast, at least before Flash claim. Emc could be an exception, but his vote with 4 minutes to go didn't look scum bus.

Worst looking votes are mine and Worcej. But I think both are town. So I think scum is between who vote Chaqa after Flash claim and who stayed away (like Ghug). So, we should be targeting between Bozo, seth, Fox, Bob and Bo. You already know my preference.

This is a scummy post. Why can't you re-read this one? Why should we keep it simple? You want some more mis-kills before I find your scum buddy or something? That makes no sense. Why would town!rdr want to keep it *simple* and why are you dismissing my push on prado as a conspiracy theory? Is there something you disagree with? If so, can you tell me what specifically, and also tell me why you think he's townie? Beyond him voting Chaqa before going to do the dishes?

I also thought you weren't really around so how do you know how fast the movement was? Why is EMC the bus exception, but you're not willing to entertain trprado? Who do you actually scum read, you pretty much listed everyone but the known PR, and me and summit and prado - except prado has done nothing to deserve that.

Since when do all scum just never bus? Bozo pointed out that Tr has broken the vote to put his scum partner in the lead with a bus before. Is it so out of question that someone voted Chaqa, and then came back surprised that Chaqa was actually killed?

Durga, I don't know why you are so angry, but you clearly lost your capacity to read things on context. I didn't say scum never bus. I bus a lot as scum. But you bus for a reason: to distance from a scum partner, to get town credit, etc.
I don't see this on Chaqas wagon and that's where I am basing my analysis. It's only one thing, but it's an important one as it's the only known scum wagon.

I didn't said I can't re-read, just that I didn't have time. It's over midnight here and just now I had some time to catch the thread, do some analysis and I don't have time to read old games. Sorry if this look lazy, but it's life.

Good night.

[TrPrado]

What am I being thick about then? Why are you TRPRADO, responding to this and not all my other accusations? How is this the most emotion you can muster in response to me ripping at you

lol what am I supposed to say? You're just throwing the word meek around like it really means something here and saying the posts I make and questions I ask while catching up are just echoing you. You want me to fight? Why would I do that? I've explained myself honestly and you can take it or leave it.

Your vibe is really different from M46 it feels. Your presence is kind of... bland here. You're playing overly cautious this game, and that doesn't seem right for either being town or your specific town meta.

I can't understand why you would think, as town, that you should first ask about the roleblock before you claim it. You explanation of you haven't played for a year seems weak, and it's also d4 - how have you not refreshed yourself on town play yet if you are town?

You haven't really pushed cases, you haven't done anything investigative, you HAVE been insanely repetitive (not just of me, but others, notably calling out rdr for all caps after fox already did, and tons of other posts like this), you even acknowledged you're like this by saying you're working on some original thought, and you never posted it, and now you're claiming you can't post it yet for god knows what reason.

And yes, I do want you to fight. If you're town you should obviously engage with me to prove me wrong.

Most of my interaction with this game has been through catch up posts from my phone because I have been doing things outside of the site. I haven't really had a lot of time to sit down and build a massive case on someone. The original thoughts thing was a joke because you claimed I was just echoing. Something crucial clicked into place for me around EOD and some things started making a lot of sense when I took a certain assumption into account, but I want to use day 4 to confirm it. I've already let slip a bit more than I really wanted to on this topic.

[bozotheclown]

Okay, reading d2 I'm actually changing my mind on bo I think. I think some of his reactions have been non-mafia. And he has demonstrated a lot of thinking, and while I don't agree with that thinking always, it is hard to think when you're scum.

On the other hand, tr is deliberately ignoring me in the least townie way possible. And his interactions with ghug do not scream town tr to me.

What do people think of this team?
ghug-chaqa-trprado-yoyo/bob

Because this is what I'm leaning towards. I know I've switched it up like a million times but this is where I'm currently at. If I'm wrong about one of these (and if I am, I think it's yoyo/bob - because i'm starting to think its just a red herring bc of how much everyone is pushing this slot) then rdr or bo is likely it.

I don't know who 3p is but I'm fairly sure bozo, summit, worcej, emc, and fuck even seth probably are not mafia.

Thankfully we have two PRs + damo left. It feels like this is our game to lose.

If TrPrado is mafia, that was a very convincing bus of Chaqa. I reviewed 2 games where TrPrado was mafia, M36 and M50, and he only voted for his teammates when they were confirmed guilty with one exception, D7 of M36, where he did place a tie breaking vote on his teammate, although it was well before EOD.

How people have time to dig old games? I can't even re-read this one.

I think we should keep things simple now. If we fail to hit scum in the next days we can start conspiracy theories, but now we should look to the most simple explanations

I don't think there is scum on the first Chaqa voters. It was a fast movement closer to EOD, I don't think scum will join it so fast, at least before Flash claim. Emc could be an exception, but his vote with 4 minutes to go didn't look scum bus.

Worst looking votes are mine and Worcej. But I think both are town. So I think scum is between who vote Chaqa after Flash claim and who stayed away (like Ghug). So, we should be targeting between Bozo, seth, Fox, Bob and Bo. You already know my preference.

I agree with this except for the part about me voting for Chaqa after flash's claim, which is not accurate.

[BobMcBob]

Have we ascertained which 3P role we’re dealing with? I didn’t think so, and I’m not sure it’s even possible. Both of those roles have very peculiar voting expectations. When I get a block of time I’d like to spend some time on that.

Did we ever get any discussion going around this? Because I honestly think this could be a really helpful discussion to have around catching 3P. Not exactly something we want to focus on now, but something to keep in consideration for later.

[TrPrado]

Have we ascertained which 3P role we’re dealing with? I didn’t think so, and I’m not sure it’s even possible. Both of those roles have very peculiar voting expectations. When I get a block of time I’d like to spend some time on that.

Did we ever get any discussion going around this? Because I honestly think this could be a really helpful discussion to have around catching 3P. Not exactly something we want to focus on now, but something to keep in consideration for later.

What do you think is worth discussing about this post right now?

[bozotheclown]

If TrPrado is mafia, that was a very convincing bus of Chaqa. I reviewed 2 games where TrPrado was mafia, M36 and M50, and he only voted for his teammates when they were confirmed guilty with one exception, D7 of M36, where he did place a tie breaking vote on his teammate, although it was well before EOD.

How people have time to dig old games? I can't even re-read this one.

I think we should keep things simple now. If we fail to hit scum in the next days we can start conspiracy theories, but now we should look to the most simple explanations

I don't think there is scum on the first Chaqa voters. It was a fast movement closer to EOD, I don't think scum will join it so fast, at least before Flash claim. Emc could be an exception, but his vote with 4 minutes to go didn't look scum bus.

Worst looking votes are mine and Worcej. But I think both are town. So I think scum is between who vote Chaqa after Flash claim and who stayed away (like Ghug). So, we should be targeting between Bozo, seth, Fox, Bob and Bo. You already know my preference.

I agree with this except for the part about me voting for Chaqa after flash's claim, which is not accurate.

To be clear, the part I agree with is the part about early Chaqa voters not being the first place we should be looking for mafia. Chaqa was a mafia PR with no votes 30 minutes before EOD, I do not think his teammates were looking for an opportunity to bus him. I do think bo_sox could have been distancing by criticizing Chaqa's town slip post about Hamilton, and I find it suspicious that bo_sox did not vote for Chaqa after that. rdrivera's D2 vote did not look good, as he said, but the argument he is making makes be think he is non-mafia.

[Hamilton Brian]

Have we ascertained which 3P role we’re dealing with? I didn’t think so, and I’m not sure it’s even possible. Both of those roles have very peculiar voting expectations. When I get a block of time I’d like to spend some time on that.

Did we ever get any discussion going around this? Because I honestly think this could be a really helpful discussion to have around catching 3P. Not exactly something we want to focus on now, but something to keep in consideration for later.

What do you think is worth discussing about this post right now?

What do you think?

[TrPrado]

Did we ever get any discussion going around this? Because I honestly think this could be a really helpful discussion to have around catching 3P. Not exactly something we want to focus on now, but something to keep in consideration for later.

What do you think is worth discussing about this post right now?

What do you think?

Well he said it is both helpful to discuss and not something to focus on right now so I couldn't possibly tell you. That is why I asked.

[TrPrado]

Bob is so fucking hedgy can we just kill him already?

[bozotheclown]

I am going to traveling, so I will be offline for 24 to 36 hours, but I will be back before EOD.

[BobMcBob]

I can't be bothered to snip quotes everywhere so this response will be awkward.

Rereading BobMcBob. EODs are a little light, so this is just a generic reread:

Okay so I just read Yoyo's posts from day 1, and there's really nothing in there that jumped out at me, except the fact that I haven't read the setup yet...

What did you expect to see when you read Yoyo’s posts from day 1? Why would anything have “jumped out” at you? You presumably knew your role, and thus his as well.

I was looking for why other people would be voting me, not trying to discern my role. I wanted to know which "odd interactions" and whatnot people were talking about

Okay so the Bunny wagon was kinda awful I have to say, as far as I can tell he was l——— for having a "bad start", going to bed, and then coming back and reacting badly? I mean his start was actually fine IMO, at least his actions. Not a huge fan of the pedantics but it's way too small for it to be worth voting over, especially given he was going to sleep. That's a perfectly acceptable excuse for absence. (Speaking of which, it's 12am here so I'll probably only be around for another couple of hours before I go to sleep and wait to get drawn and quartered). Is there anything I missed in my somewhat brief analysis of the bunny votes?

I love the start to this post. It’s a great jumping off point. I’m enamored with it like a mediocre college professor drools over a thesis statement. The rest of this post, though… what is it? It seemed like you were about to make a point and prove it, but then you just didn’t.

I don't know, I guess I just didn't elaborate properly

Oh yay, I get a bit of slack. I can't help but feel that I'm still going to get rabbitholed for the same reasons as last time I subbed, but hey, day 1 is out of my control. I chose to sub into this after all. I think I missed what other people are seeing about scummy interactions, could somebody please explain? Like sure he used the word lol too much but I can't find much scum indicative in that. I agree his absence after saying he'd do something is odd, but I can't see a game-related reason he'd leave like that. He wasn't exactly being run up a wall or anything.

Like before, you ought to know your own role, and thus your predecessor’s role. I don’t understand the uncertainty about Yoyo.

Already addressed

EoD was really darn empty. I'm surprised. Was it because everybody thought it was an hour later? Regardless, I'm still struggling to work out who to vote for. Out of the closest wagons to me, I think there's a better case for flash than Tr, flash has been pretty absent and vague. (I mean yes you could argue I'm the same, but I just subbed off the back of someone who'd been missing for liket hree days, and I haven't had much time to read. I'll be back with a good bit more tomorrow if I'm still alive, promise). I'm not a huuuge fan of the flash wagon but I don't have anyone better to vote for and a decent chance of hitting scum or at worst a lurker is better than guaranteed town as far as I'm concerned. ##vote flash

Who is guaranteed town?

Me of course

Well that was a great turnout! Even when I went to bed I was feeling hopeful, and I was right! And chaqa... was chaqa. That's a very Chaqa thing to do. I'm a little annoyed that flash was outed, as we all are, but I can see where he's coming from, he was in a tough position at the end there and wanted to ensure his safety. And I have no clue why the heck yoyo came back, as is the case for the GMs apparently. I am the officially sanctioned player though, so ignore him and devote all your attention to me. When I'm active that is, I'll be out for a large chunk of the day and don't really be active again until about the same time I subbed yesterday.

What did Yoyo do by errantly coming back with an innocent, unincriminating post that prompts you to plead for us to ignore him?

Well given I took over from him it seems relevant right? I wasn't "pleading", simply making an observation and a slight joke at the same time. And please nobody spend 5 pages discussing the joke.

Reads part 1! (Please note due to time constraints that I have not read most of these people in-depth. More reads will be delivered later)
Flash - you'll never believe it, but I'm really liking the way flash looks at the moment. Yeah good on me for that read, he's town, he's probably gonna die, nuff said.
Emc - also unsurprisingly looks pretty good. I mean sure he lurked a bit but also he seemed fairly genuine and I was getting solid vibes, although nothing stood out. Also got pushed real hard by chaqa which looks pretty good I think.
Rdrivera - I mean, rdr is a player who exists. Really not feeling much either way here, at least not from my somewhat shallow reading.
Seth - um, holy heck is this guy seriously new? He's already better than me. As far as I could see he was doing some really good analysis and stuff, looks like a super good guy to have around. I didn't think he felt scared or forced or anything either so I'm really digging this guy. Welcome aboard Seth!
Worcej - man I love sassy worcej. His whole day two thing is exactly what I expect and like to see from him. I'm not sure I've ever played with scum worcej (and if I have I can't recall off the top of my head) but this is behaviour I associate with town worcej, so he's good with me. Also it's just hilarious to watch.

When is reads part 2 coming? Perhaps you could give some reads on people you actually have a worthwhile thing to say about.

Reads part 2 was split into I think 2 smaller posts with 3 or 4 reads between them. It was never completely finished due to the fact that it was 2am. And I can assure you reads are one of my top priorities for today.

My problem is that if I do go back and read, you won't see head or tail of me for ages. Even if I go back and just read N2 you'll see me next in about 12 hours' time. I'm keeping up now because progress is slow but reading 20 pages worth of stuff will keep me absent for quite some time, and I won't have the possibility to bring anything along. So I guess that's what I'll go do now. See you in like 12 hours or something with no opinions.

Okay, so after a bit more doing life, I'm back to reading. I'm not a super fast reader and still have 10 pages to go or something, so I'll be a while. If you for some reason have questions or accusations or whatever I'll answer when I'm caught up on N2. Nothing else, just N2.

Is it an odd coincidence that these two posts are actually 12 hours apart? Did you set a stopwatch?

No, I just knew that 10 to 10:30pm was roughly the time I'd be able to sink back in to mafia a bit more, and it just happened to be a convenient number of hours away.

You think I have that much time? I've read the start of where I left off, and the end to see what happened there, but the middle chunk is still missing. VCA will be interesting and provide a lot of information when combined with the Chaqa VCA. I don't have access to the bot right now but I'll get onto it later and see if I can provide a passable analysis.

Assuming VCA = vote count analysis? I’m looking forward to this, please provide us with your analysis.

I thought I could get something but it turned out to be quite lame and I kinda couldn't be bothered. Durga is almost certainly town because of Chaqa, but then I couldn't get anything much from D3. Like there are some late movers but I didn't find them overly suspicious, and i think the most likely explanation is most of them were just moving to the two clearly leading wagons and trying to break the tie later. I could easily see scum hiding in that movement though. Durga emc and summit flip-flopped, but I don't think it's really indicative of anything. Could be a confusion tactic, could be tie-breaking. Summit was the first voter in the stampede, which is interesting, and fox tied the vote earlier, which is more interesting.

I think the remaining scum, including 3P, has to lie within Fox, rdr, summit, and maybe prado, bozo or worcej (the latter 3 being less likely of course). Everyone else is well and in my towncore.

Is this based on analysis or just something you came up with?

Very cursory analysis, yes.

[BobMcBob]

Have we ascertained which 3P role we’re dealing with? I didn’t think so, and I’m not sure it’s even possible. Both of those roles have very peculiar voting expectations. When I get a block of time I’d like to spend some time on that.

Did we ever get any discussion going around this? Because I honestly think this could be a really helpful discussion to have around catching 3P. Not exactly something we want to focus on now, but something to keep in consideration for later.

What do you think is worth discussing about this post right now?

Seeing if we can connect any voting patterns to 3P, especially to Warlock.

[BobMcBob]

You really shouldn't need to scumread someone based on their meta alone at this point.

I don’t.

Fox not pushing and treading water as I clogged the thread is a good example of scummy behavior. He normally pushes hard as town.

So your reaction to Bo's assertion that you shouldn't scumread me on meta is... to revert to a scumread based on meta??

Okay yeah I was thinking this earlier too. That's not a very good excuse for a non-meta scum read.

[BobMcBob]

My TL;DR is he tunnels when he is town. I have not felt like Fox is tunneling anyone this game and when people have applied pressure, such as myself when he pushed me early, he backed off.

This is after you accused me of tunneling on you!

Because I went ahead and did some research because I remembered this after I accused you. Turns out you do tunnel as town pretty regularly.

Worcej, what does this post even mean? You accused him of tunnelling and then decided after doing some research that it wasn't actually tunnelling? This post makes no sense.

[BobMcBob]

Can someone tell me what exactly I'm missing about Fox that is apparently scummy. I feel like everyone is just stating he's scummy but no one is saying why.

I assume Rdrivera is doing it because he's scum and thinks he can get an easy mis-kill.

How on Earth you are an easy mis-kill? Half the game solidly town reading for reasons I can't understand.

I'd still say a relatively easy mis-kill based on the fact that you can just point them to how little he's actually done as an argument. Then blame your reads on a "feeling" and you have a decent chance of getting a wagon going. I mean who else is an easier option to mis-kill other than me (who you're also trying) or worcej? Note this down for my case on rdr if anybody wants to keep track. Lack of a worcej push is perhaps interesting but worcej was also being pushed really hard by some others such that he didn't really need to and can point to that as a correct townread or something later. Either that or worcej is his scumbuddy and so he wouldn't push anyway.

[BobMcBob]

Because I went ahead and did some research because I remembered this after I accused you. Turns out you do tunnel as town pretty regularly.

So basically, you're saying that you've found past games to justify whichever read you want. That's super helpful, isn't it.

Can you, without reference to my meta or my behavior in any other game, point to things that I've done in this game that you think are scum motivated?

In one sentence, it's a lack of conviction.

Other than me, I've seen nothing that makes me think you're actually hunting and analyzing. You ask a lot of questions and engage in dialogue in ways that do not stick your neck out and make it look like your doing something.

Re-reading you at a high level, you've moved your vote several times and have been 'okay' with the flip - TrPrado, Flash - or didn't have a case and thus that was the case - Rdr specifically.

You've put a lot of effort into my case, but put minimum effort into others. Your main point on going for flash (RIP) and rdr is because they appeared to be coasting. Your first post of the game was to shade Prado and you've brought him up a couple of times, but always seem to keep coming back to me when it comes time for conviction. If you were tunneling, I would expect you to be posting like bozo is - constantly countering what I am actually saying and trying to cement your case, but again you are not.

This is a good bit of the reason why I feel he could be scum. As warlock a worcej push is probably what he wants. And scumming people for coasting while to a large degree coasting yourself is just not on. I'll expand my case later, time permitting, butI think Fox is a good candidate for hanging, if not today then soon.

[BobMcBob]

I have also consistently said I think the Bob slot has seemed scum to me. Even when it was Yoyo I said his deriding me for feeling the original statement was fine seemed like it was an unnatural progression from him also deriding me for not immediately catching on to the whole lie detector statement thing. I gave Bob time to catch up but then I looked at his N2 posts and realized there was like no content

Have you even played a game with me before? (Rhetorical question, I remember you in M50 at least) "No content" is apparently my default state, no matter how hard I try or think I'm managing to actually contribute. I've been a little slack this game but I'm really getting tired of people consistently scumreading me for it. If you have some other reason for saying I'm scum other than an apparently slightly awkward interaction with yoyo, I'd like to hear it.

[BobMcBob]

I do not understand the emc votes, I do not see anything about his D2 interaction with Chaqa that makes me suspect emc is mafia.

I'm with you on this one. Emc is a bit of a lurker and not a huge help so far but he seems genuine this game.