MAFIA LVIII (58) - WITCHFINDER GENERAL - GAME THREAD

[Vecna]

If seth were scum I don't think he'd be trying to build Mt. Everest in the thread. Especially without using the bot.

Probably not, unless scum team is on him to make it look good. No one's moved on to that wagon so they're safe as of now.

I don't see why you need to equivocate on this one. There's zero chance seth is scum given what just happened.

Summit doing another one, where he has the same weird feelings about a post.

HB might be scum here. Summit suddenly looking a lot LOT better in my eyes.

[Vecna]

Also listening to the dead is dumb. By virtue of not having had a chance to invest new information, they know less than we do. Bunny was scum in that game.

It isn’t dumb to listen to them. It’s dumb to think they were omniscient and were right without reflecting on new information.

Agree. You should not blindly follow the dead townies, but at least consider his thoughts as you can be sure they are town motivated.

Man, I know you did that cutesy thing of appealing to me that my posts have started looking better, but I really do not feel the same way about yours.

Wheres the deep thoughts Rdrivera? Youre so bloody surface level this game. Normally your town game always has you posting my thoughts when im catching up.

Has not happened a single time yet.

I really dont get how people are townreading you for this, but I guess that explains why you always cruise controlled through games when u rolled scum every game.

[Vecna]

Several, yes!

Could have fooled me.

Would you be shocked if I said you’re my top town read?

TrPrado continuing to town it up

[Vecna]

What's the rationale for the Yoyo wagon?

Is it because they're a non-poster? Durga has made the closest thing resembling a case.

Is it better to kill off someone we're not hearing from (their inactivity can impede town, unless they're really scum and it doesn't matter) than to kill someone we can build an actual case on because of their interactions?

I think the latter is more viable, especially if Yoyo really is town.

And once again, doesnt HB have a bunch of games under his belt already?

This just reads like he wants to pull the newby card again.

[Vecna]

One of the questions I had was around Bismarck dropping their vote on Damo all day on D1. I didn't understand it so I made a point of going back to that day. There was a lot of chatter from others about Damo being scummy. Vec, Bis, Bo, Durga. Vecna took the vote off to go to Bunny (or settle there at the end of the day, anyway).

So, with seeing no Damo wagon in the offering at this point, why? Why day 1 and not day 2? I get that the numerical odds and mechanics posts would lend a lean towards a scum read, but it seems that the critique of them has evaporated. Why?

Foxcastle, you had some harsh words for Damo on day 1. What's your read of them now?
Vecna, Durga, Bo_ ? Would you entertain a Damo wagon again?

Hmm, but here he's trying to do the consensus building/questioning thing. Decent post, that has me at least questioning the earlier statements.

[Vecna]

Did yoyo post at all at night?

He has not posted since day 1 when he left with 4 hours to go in the phase saying he would offer some analysis soon, so no.

Interesting that Bo is aware of Yoyo's movements, yet has no clue about Chaqas movements, even though he's directly adressing Chaqa in the post prior to this.

Why ask that question of chaqa, bo? Were you under the impression he has actually done/read something at all in this game?

[Vecna]

Vecna, Durga, Bo_ ? Would you entertain a Damo wagon again?

I'm not opposed to voting for damo but I'd like him to answer my question first. I'd also like him to actually play sober a little bit today so I can get a more current read on him.

I do sort of follow along quite well with most of the other Bo thought processes, and I feel he is probably town

[Vecna]

It isn’t dumb to listen to them. It’s dumb to think they were omniscient and were right without reflecting on new information.

Agree. You should not blindly follow the dead townies, but at least consider his thoughts as you can be sure they are town motivated.

Townies are often killed because their reads are wrong and scum want to crystallize those views. The other side of the coin is that players with good reads are kept around to avoid suspicion that "X was pushing Q hard, therefor Q probably killed X" when Q is scum. So actually, HR's top reads are probably not scum.

Man, Fox, why you just engaging him on that fluff post, instead of calling him out. Also your reasoning is way too fluffy, scum kill players with good reads all the time, because noone ever listens to the dead anyway and its a vote less heading your way.

Why do people townread Rdrivera again?

[Vecna]

Yoyo’s wagon looks super scummy to me. Maybe he’s not scum. Or at least maybe Yoyo and Worcej aren’t scum together.

You are reading Prado and myself as scum, so you read our interactions as scum vs scum. Do you really think we'd "make up" and then hop on the same leading wagon?

I think Prado has been coming from a town perspective, though I don't know their game at all. I don't see Rivera as scum at all. Maybe Durga, but I'm still okay townreading her.

Can you explain your townread on Rdrivera Summit? Because your thoughts seem to be heading in a somewhat similar direction as mine atm.

[Vecna]

Who specifically looks scummy on it?

AKA would you like to vote for Prado with me?


@Prado since you're so fond at harping on people who don't directly answer your questions: you still haven't given me your thoughts on other people.

I really want to vote summit, but I would be fine seeing what happens if TrPrado gets in the running.

##VOTE TRPRADO

You scumread summit's recent posts?

[rdrivera2005]

If it was really town v town, which I think is probably the most likely at this point, I'd expect one or two scum to be on the two main wagons and the rest fucking off on the side, especially since I townread Durga and damo, who are the only people I can see really being saved by the main wagons. I don't share your opinion that scum are more likely to have been on Bunny than Bismarck.

I agree that it seems at this point to have probably been town v town and I also agree with the potential for 1-2 scum on the leading wagons. I also townread durga and damo. Which is interesting because the first vote on the bis wagon was bunny (who later moved his vote elsewhere), second was damo who I also townread, third was flash to make it 4 bunny v 3 bis (no reason for scum to do this right?, forth was bozo (another one who I townread) to make it a leading wagon, and fifth was summit, and then myself.

I don't see a reason any of those players (aside from maybe flash) would be jumping on the Bismarck wagon as scum since the bunny wagon was already in full swing. It is very possible I may be missing something but I feel much more confident of finding scum on the bunny wagon.

Why would players be more inclined to join the bunny wagon than the Bismarck wagon?

I think if scum aren't feeling pressure to make something specific happen, they'll a) distance from their teammates and b) try to imitate town behavior. I don't see any reason flash or bozo wouldn't have voted Bismarck there as scum, and the rest I townread for independent reasons.

That's a post I can agree. If it was town x town scum will do a) or b) but trying to not make s big shift on his reads. But there is a reason to vote Bismarck if he is town that is to make sure both running wagons are town.
Depending on meta, some scum could also get off vanity wagons to avoid later pressure on them.

[Vecna]

AKA would you like to vote for Prado with me?


@Prado since you're so fond at harping on people who don't directly answer your questions: you still haven't given me your thoughts on other people.

I really want to vote summit, but I would be fine seeing what happens if TrPrado gets in the running.

##VOTE TRPRADO

This kind of hedgy vote rings some scum alarm bells.

Goddamn, is there light at the end of the tunnel?

Like its weak, but its something.

[Vecna]

I really want to vote summit, but I would be fine seeing what happens if TrPrado gets in the running.

##VOTE TRPRADO

This kind of hedgy vote rings some scum alarm bells.

How is this hedgy? I’m choosing between two options, both of which I’ve been clear about scumreading.

Fox, let me ask you something thats been rubbing me the wrong way a little bit.

You were defending against my push very strongly D1. When I decided to back off, why did you suddenly lose all interest in calling out my bullshit (fypov) arguments?

I backed off and you suddenly acted like I no longer existed. Why?

[Vecna]

This kind of hedgy vote rings some scum alarm bells.

I think it was just honesty. Fox is really looking town.

I just want to put the one caveat out there that Fox blundered big time in the last game, so a reroll of scum would probably bring out a very motivated Fox.

That being said. I think Fox is town.

See, Rdrivera, THIS is what hedging looks like.

town always hedges. hedging is completely NAI.

This is the most beat-to-death argument on webdip. The one thing that results in by far the most mislynches. it is so damn tiresome.

[Vecna]

This kind of hedgy vote rings some scum alarm bells.

How is this hedgy? I’m choosing between two options, both of which I’ve been clear about scumreading.

Sorry, if I miss this. I interpreted it as you having a stronger scum read on summit but voting Prado to have another wagon.

just when I thought he did a thing, he goes and explains it, and its not a thing at all.

[Vecna]

And that would be a bad thing?

With a full day to EOD and summit not being a runaway wagon, yes. At this time you push your scumreads.

You're seated squarely at the head of the current runaway again, you know that right?

what does this mean, bo?

Youre telling Rdrivera he's about to be runover? One can only hope.

[Vecna]

I'm drunk again. What did I miss. I swear I don't have a problem life is just hard

im sad I did not join in on drunkposting last night

[rdrivera2005]

Wanting to find an alternative in what now looks like the likely case of Yoyo not meeting the requirements in time, going back to the interactions he had and ugh.

I believe the grammar was well covered. I do not think there is much with the setup to discuss yet, there are 81 possible combinations of town PRs. I think there would be some value in a mass claim so that we know what we are dealing with, but it is not obvious that the benefit would outweigh the cost of our PRs getting killed early, so I am confident there would be little or no support for a mass claim.

Bruh.
If it already wasn’t clear to you, this is a really shitty idea. I’d say this was super fishy if it weren’t such an obviously bad idea, and we weren’t fresh off a loss due to one of your genius plans. You’re doing me no favors in my effort to convince myself that you’re going to be useful this game.

the bolded text [added bold] funny

immediately after he supports hypo claim idea, gets slightly hedgy on it when it catches flak

most (almost all) of his substance is about the "i am town" statements or the hypo claim idea, and the only person who can be SOMEWHAT incriminated by them if Yoyo flips scum would be bozo

who's talked about him? thats a lot more content from the looks of it

[snip]

##vote Yoyo, just on a feeling that his push on Durga seems so fake.

theres something about this that feels almost off, to anyone else?

went and reread bozo's town read of Yoyo and it's literally "yeah he was vocally in favor of my hypo claim idea no scum would be!" got a good chuckle

Yoyoyozo was arguing the benefits of the Weak Doctor hypo claims, all things (Prado note: this was included with Bunny and damo town reads for other reasons) that I felt they would not be doing as scum.

Interesting, specially the Bozo part, he usually doesn't make such mistakes.
Do you think they are scum together?

On my gut feeling about Yoyo, I have been more confident on my gut reads lately. I got HR last game and Xorxes some games ago, but I just can't convince people, so I am not backtracking on it now.

[Vecna]

As I start to catch up here, and holy shit, it's like an endless Buster Keaton clip.

Where I sit at this point, and this is only from very quick, cursory reads.

Seth's "goodbye" to Bunny was pretty scummy to me.

Durga: in my games with them, they've been equanimous. Town, scum, both the same. I've got to dig into those two games to determine anything more. And then the questions...the questions.

So if I have learned anything at this point in my mafia career, in an overall sense, think before writing. I'm trying to do that.

Secondly, as town, when there are better town around, stay out of their way as they investigate unless there is a something that can strengthen a read. I'm really just getting here into the game, so give it time.

Stop this bullshit of getting out of the way. You need to step up so people can sort you. Otherwise we will need to flip you to discover it.

This makes me think rivera is town, funnily enough, it has teeth. Town points to him.

Hmm, I missed this one I guess. Good thing EMc quoted it.

[rdrivera2005]

Agree. You should not blindly follow the dead townies, but at least consider his thoughts as you can be sure they are town motivated.

Townies are often killed because their reads are wrong and scum want to crystallize those views. The other side of the coin is that players with good reads are kept around to avoid suspicion that "X was pushing Q hard, therefor Q probably killed X" when Q is scum. So actually, HR's top reads are probably not scum.

Man, Fox, why you just engaging him on that fluff post, instead of calling him out. Also your reasoning is way too fluffy, scum kill players with good reads all the time, because noone ever listens to the dead anyway and its a vote less heading your way.

Why do people townread Rdrivera again?

Because I am obviously town?