Mafia 56: Scout Camp

[worcej]

Worcej my man

Care to talk?

I want to convince you here. Not because these asshats made me cave. I dont want that to be your reason for doing it either.

I am like... 9 pages behind.

What do you want to know, boil it down to one post.

[worcej]

“He isn’t cooperating, get him!” is a pretty shit excuse.

Ask yourself this: What scum motivation do I have to stand my ground and be obstinate?

How does eliminating a non-participant in any way advance your chances of catching scum?

Playing devil's advocate, you could have the motivation so that you could use this exact argument...

Still, this play is risky as heck and being this stubborn has a high chance of getting him lynched. Especially with the number of complete noobs who can easily be swayed by the scum elements of this game, he's offering himself up as a very likely lynch. I can almost guarantee there will be at least 2 scum on worcej no matter which way he flips though, so at least we get information I guess. And getting a little bit information as a trade-up for unfortunate deaths is the whole point of the massclaim right?

You won't really gain any information since you'll never be able to trust what I am, other than you'll know my town alignment - which is fucking obvious by now.

[worcej]

Playing devil's advocate, you could have the motivation so that you could use this exact argument...

Still, this play is risky as heck and being this stubborn has a high chance of getting him lynched. Especially with the number of complete noobs who can easily be swayed by the scum elements of this game, he's offering himself up as a very likely lynch. I can almost guarantee there will be at least 2 scum on worcej no matter which way he flips though, so at least we get information I guess. And getting a little bit information as a trade-up for unfortunate deaths is the whole point of the massclaim right?

I have no particular desire to vote worcej at this time, though I would prefer that instead of focusing on the massclaim/refusing to take part, he use his time to actually look for mafia, because the more time we spend discussing said massclaim the better from the mafia perspective. If he's going to hold out, he can at least start looking to generate other content instead.

I'm quite content on my damo vote now that he's returned and completely ignored it despite throwing an OMGUS out.

I have. I think bozo is scum.

I told my buddy this, so I'll post it here to save me time:

I 100% think the scum will come out on top from the claims. Bozo is usually town when he pushes these, but claiming like this will ultimately result in the town PRs being outted and steadily neutralized as the ‘leaders’ focus in on the VT pool. The information gained is too little to warrant this claim strategy.

The logic is too obvious to me - scum will have a couple people dip into the PRs, maybe even 3, and the way people trickle in with these claims makes it easier for scum to sort themselves out. I would’ve bought in if we all agreed to claim at X time, but you won’t be able to coordinate that as town.

[worcej]

I'm sick of debating this. I didn't like the mass claim but I feel like at this point it would be foolish to stop now? Can we figure it out and move on already.

There is strong merit in pointing out how incredibly scummy the mass claim actually is in this situation.

People need to start seeing it.

[Vecna]

Worcej my man

Care to talk?

I want to convince you here. Not because these asshats made me cave. I dont want that to be your reason for doing it either.

I am like... 9 pages behind.

What do you want to know, boil it down to one post.

The claim is nearly complete. Youre the only one that is not about to be modkilled (I think? not sure if what the other 2 was enough to meet requirements) that has not claimed.

Whether the strategy was good before starting or not is now moot.

Most of the scum seem to be hiding in the VTs. The claim from you will really help us out here.

[worcej]

The fact youre advocating for a mass-claim, and then state straight after you will lynch whoever does not claim, means youre just rolefishing and/or looking for an easy out to not have to solve Xorxes. You do not actually want to do this to "increase our chances of winning".

Lynching unclaimed people immediately ruins the entire strategy, since you immediately have a flip that can never be verified. Meaning you will never know how many scum youre dealing with in the pool of PRs and VTs.

Did not really think that through now did you?

You cannot force this strategy if people refuse to participate. Ive told you I will not. I will die and take my role to the grave before I claim.

Now, you can try and spin it in such a way that you wanna call my bluff, or think id only do this as scum, but you know very well youre never going to win that one.

Off the top of my head:
Mass-claiming ruined the UK Parliament game.
Mass-claiming ruined the mafia team in the Serenity game.

This game doesn't break it, but it also isn't worth the cost. Scum will come out on top from the claims.

Also off the top of my head: didn't town won on both games you commented?

Yes they did. But I don't play mafia to just be a winner, I play to actually participate.

These mass claims are the reason why my games will either be closed or a mass claim is worthless.

I'll probably make a special NK clause that if the mafia team thinks someone is a PR, they make a list instead of a single kill. If the list is correct, then they all die.

[worcej]

Worcej my man

Care to talk?

I want to convince you here. Not because these asshats made me cave. I dont want that to be your reason for doing it either.

I am like... 9 pages behind.

What do you want to know, boil it down to one post.

The claim is nearly complete. Youre the only one that is not about to be modkilled (I think? not sure if what the other 2 was enough to meet requirements) that has not claimed.

Whether the strategy was good before starting or not is now moot.

Most of the scum seem to be hiding in the VTs. The claim from you will really help us out here.

What is the current list?

[Vecna]

Off the top of my head:
Mass-claiming ruined the UK Parliament game.
Mass-claiming ruined the mafia team in the Serenity game.

This game doesn't break it, but it also isn't worth the cost. Scum will come out on top from the claims.

Also off the top of my head: didn't town won on both games you commented?

Yes they did. But I don't play mafia to just be a winner, I play to actually participate.

These mass claims are the reason why my games will either be closed or a mass claim is worthless.

I'll probably make a special NK clause that if the mafia team thinks someone is a PR, they make a list instead of a single kill. If the list is correct, then they all die.

Yep, and if we actually demonstrate here that it really is so easy to break it by massclaim, all mods will need to start using stronger anti massclaim measures.

I want us to do this properly so it can be the last time.

[Vecna]

I am like... 9 pages behind.

What do you want to know, boil it down to one post.

The claim is nearly complete. Youre the only one that is not about to be modkilled (I think? not sure if what the other 2 was enough to meet requirements) that has not claimed.

Whether the strategy was good before starting or not is now moot.

Most of the scum seem to be hiding in the VTs. The claim from you will really help us out here.

What is the current list?

PR: xorxes, Vecna, flash, emc, TFB, Bismarck, JF (7)
VT: damo, rdrivera, HR, bozo, Durga, Donny, summit, brainbomb, Macca, BobMcBob (10)

Have not heard from since PR/VT mass claim began:
Chaqa, TRC

Others:
worcej

I believe this is the latest up-to-date list

[xorxes]

The depth of your reads xorxes....I dno man. It feels really shallow. Like youre afraid to pick any fights with the big dogs in that pile.

I actually think Durga is super scummy in that pile for failing to do anything towny so far. Rdrivera has also felt rather safe.

What do you feel about bob's way of how he responded to my townread? Do you think scum just discounts my townread with "noone is ever going to listen to vecna anyway"?

I don't think that was discounting it, it was making sure that everyone knew you were townreading him.

Durga and HR have been a bit underwhelming. I'm prepared to give them day 1 though.

rivera has seemed towny to me, but maybe I'm just carrying over my successful read of him from last game. I would not want to pursue him today either.

[xorxes]

12 claims so far.

Expected VT claims 7/20 * 12 = 4.2.

Allowing for reluctance to claim to be weighted towards PRs let's call this 5.

We have 7 VT claimants thus far so much guess would be 2 scum therein.

5-2 better than 3-1 isn't it?

My guess at the 2 would be HR and Durga. I stress guess.

Your math use so liberally in a meaningless situation must only be to try to make yourself look intelligent.

When damo starts doing numbers, it's time to worry.

[worcej]

In terms of horrible numbers, what really stuck out to me was bozo saying that if we had more than 8 PR claims we should get all the PRs to claim roles so that we can root out mafia. I cannot see any way that getting 1 or 2 mafia into a group of three to lynch from while simultaneously revealing exactly where to hit to nullify our best PR actions is a good thing. Not only that, he thought that (assuming one scum claimed Medic and one claimed cool guy) that a 1/3 chance of lynching correctly out of a pool of 2 PRs and one scum was a good deal. I can see no way town benefits from that. And I don't think bozo is stupid enough to mess up the numbers that badly.

This post highlights the problem I had with the claims. Mafia should force the highlighted scenario to exist if they are smart.

[worcej]

Also off the top of my head: didn't town won on both games you commented?

Yes they did. But I don't play mafia to just be a winner, I play to actually participate.

These mass claims are the reason why my games will either be closed or a mass claim is worthless.

I'll probably make a special NK clause that if the mafia team thinks someone is a PR, they make a list instead of a single kill. If the list is correct, then they all die.

Yep, and if we actually demonstrate here that it really is so easy to break it by massclaim, all mods will need to start using stronger anti massclaim measures.

I want us to do this properly so it can be the last time.

Haven't the protests in the USA taught you anything?

It won't stop until you make it stop.

[xorxes]

In terms of horrible numbers, what really stuck out to me was bozo saying that if we had more than 8 PR claims we should get all the PRs to claim roles so that we can root out mafia. I cannot see any way that getting 1 or 2 mafia into a group of three to lynch from while simultaneously revealing exactly where to hit to nullify our best PR actions is a good thing. Not only that, he thought that (assuming one scum claimed Medic and one claimed cool guy) that a 1/3 chance of lynching correctly out of a pool of 2 PRs and one scum was a good deal. I can see no way town benefits from that. And I don't think bozo is stupid enough to mess up the numbers that badly.

This post highlights the problem I had with the claims. Mafia should force the highlighted scenario to exist if they are smart.

Why are you telling scum what they should be doing? You've been doing this a lot.

[worcej]

If you are town, you just tell the truth. The object of the game for town is not to protect yourself, the object is to find scum. Many townies will die before the game ends, they will still win if the town ends up winning.

Remember when I screamed this last game? Remember how numerous people disagreed?

Screw those two-faced people - most of them were scum

[worcej]

In terms of horrible numbers, what really stuck out to me was bozo saying that if we had more than 8 PR claims we should get all the PRs to claim roles so that we can root out mafia. I cannot see any way that getting 1 or 2 mafia into a group of three to lynch from while simultaneously revealing exactly where to hit to nullify our best PR actions is a good thing. Not only that, he thought that (assuming one scum claimed Medic and one claimed cool guy) that a 1/3 chance of lynching correctly out of a pool of 2 PRs and one scum was a good deal. I can see no way town benefits from that. And I don't think bozo is stupid enough to mess up the numbers that badly.

This post highlights the problem I had with the claims. Mafia should force the highlighted scenario to exist if they are smart.

Why are you telling scum what they should be doing? You've been doing this a lot.

Because anyone that is town with a damn brain should've seen this through and been saying the claim is bad because of it.

Yet I don't see many people doing that. I am beginning to wonder if there are only 5 town and 15 scum.

[worcej]

Okay, nobody give emc any more +1s. Ever. He has a perfect number now.

Opps.

[worcej]

Interesting...I lean scum. Worcej is way too cunning. He was trying to fuel the massclaim car by making it sound better...

Do you still think that's what worcej was doing?

Thing is, if Worcej is scum, his whole wall COULD BE SEEN as him coaching the newbies (he may think there are a whole lot of newbies in the mafia team). If, for example, the massclaim thing stuck (which it sort of has), then the newbie scums would claim PR based on his coaching. I agree with Worcej and Vecna on massclaims, but nothing Worcej has done points to Town just yet.

So me wanting to protect the PRs and not neuter them by having them end up going the next step (revealing roles) to find the scum in the PR pool, while the scum kill in the PR pool anyway (since keeping the VT pool alive is smart for going to mylo/lylo), is not town?

Pull your head out of the sand.

[xorxes]

This post highlights the problem I had with the claims. Mafia should force the highlighted scenario to exist if they are smart.

Why are you telling scum what they should be doing? You've been doing this a lot.

Because anyone that is town with a damn brain should've seen this through and been saying the claim is bad because of it.

Yet I don't see many people doing that. I am beginning to wonder if there are only 5 town and 15 scum.

Not sure if you think being obnoxious makes you look more towny.

I'm still not sure if you think the massclaim is bad because it "breaks the game" (makes the game too easy for town), or whether it is bad because it makes the game easier for scum. You have argued both sides of that, which is contradictory.

[Vecna]

Worcej, this continued bickering isnt worth it.

Sometimes it is ok to compromise.

Like I told bob: with the current number of claims and their knowledge of who is scum/town, the scumteam can probably already deduce whether the people that havent claimed yet are PRs or VTs.

This is only sticking it to town.

Scum already have plenty of targets to kill and roleblock.