Mafia 56: Scout Camp

[worcej]

OK I am claiming PR.

Claims so far:

PR: xorxes
Non-PR: damo

Today I will be voting to lynch among non-claimants. If everyone claims, then I will vote among non-PRs (unless we have 13 PR claims, which would be awesome).

Vecna's advice is all good except for his opposition to a massclaim based on the absurd notion that we should not be trying to make the game easier to solve.

2nd annoying person.

[bozotheclown]

I personally am unsure how you managed to pull the number 8 out of thin air. Because of the A/B roles we can't actually confirm half the PRs and mafia can pull the switches to decide which ones work. What exactly am I missing?

8 town players have unique roles (PRs), 7 town players are VT. If all mafia claim to be VTs, the 8 PRs are all clear, the A/B roles do not matter. If a mafia claims to be a town PR, and later claim to be an FAE or TCG, they will be counterclaimed by the real FAEs and TCGs, which is not a good situation for the mafia either, especially if they NK in the PRs and hit one of the CCs.

How is it not? say 2 mafia claim PR, and they each move to the FAE and TCG, they are hidden in piles of 3 players. Odds are we mislynch 2 times sorting it out as they continue to kill players.

That is where you get to do your "scum hunting via actions/words" to avoid the mislynches.

[worcej]

The fact youre advocating for a mass-claim, and then state straight after you will lynch whoever does not claim, means youre just rolefishing and/or looking for an easy out to not have to solve Xorxes. You do not actually want to do this to "increase our chances of winning".

Lynching unclaimed people immediately ruins the entire strategy, since you immediately have a flip that can never be verified. Meaning you will never know how many scum youre dealing with in the pool of PRs and VTs.

Did not really think that through now did you?

You cannot force this strategy if people refuse to participate. Ive told you I will not. I will die and take my role to the grave before I claim.

Now, you can try and spin it in such a way that you wanna call my bluff, or think id only do this as scum, but you know very well youre never going to win that one.

Off the top of my head:
Mass-claiming ruined the UK Parliament game.
Mass-claiming ruined the mafia team in the Serenity game.

This game doesn't break it, but it also isn't worth the cost. Scum will come out on top from the claims.

[worcej]

I don't like massclaims on theory, but you are right that a massclaim or a PR/VT claim favours town on this game. I only fear some town refuse to claim and turn it into a bad option.

It's not a bad option if some town refuse to claim, just less good.

If Vecna and myself do not participate, how is it good?

[worcej]

cross-post. bah

Maybe I should just change my mind on this to make a clear statement once and for all that all setups should either be closed or vanilla.

I have no real idea how you find this way of playing the game fun Xorxes

The fun for me is in finding scum. I don't believe a massclaim breaks this game, it just improves our chances of finding scum. It forces scum to make tough decisions early, before they have time to consult with their teammates. I don't really see any fun in playing suboptimally. The only acceptable reason to play a game suboptimally is when you are playing with a child and you want to make it fun for them, so you don't do your best to win.

Even adults like to have fun and enjoy their time. You're playing a game with other people, do you not care if they state that this strategy ruins the game for them?

[bozotheclown]

Rather than trying to take a vote on who supports or opposes a PR vs. VT mass claim, I am going to maintain a list of everyone who has opposed it to try to accelerate getting a consensus.

First, the reasons I think a D1 PR vs. VT mass claim is a benefit to town:

1. It will either give us 8 town clears or give us easily identifiable scum who have claimed PR.

2. It will prevent scum from making PR claims to avoid getting lynched.

3. It makes sure we know when a PR has been NKed so that scum will not be able to make PR claims late in the game when we would have no way of verifying if the claims are true.

4. Late in the game, the mafia is going to have enough information about buddy pairs to make reasonable guesses about town/town pairs, which means town can't afford too many mislynches to start the game. This makes narrowing down the lynch pool important to give town our best chance of winning.

Snipped to make the post shorter.

Responses below:
1. As Scum claim PR, we then move forward with having to claim specific roles and thus you're really just doing a full mass claim.

2. True, but given the setup, if someone claims PR at the last minute, we will never be able to verify truth or not until a flip occurs. Given there are duplicate PRs in town, if scum slam a claim into that group, the only way to confirm the claim is ALL other PRs submit their CC claim into that, which would expose the PRs for scum to kill.

3. Either way, you won't know because there are no role flips.

4. How would scum have information on buddy's at any point in this game? Am I missing an important mechanic somewhere? My read of the roles showed nothing about actually learning who each buddy is.

1. Yes, if the scum decide to claim PRs, a full mass claim is warranted.

2. If everyone claims PR or VT now, no one will be able to claim PR at the last minute. If someone refuses to make a claim until the last minute when they are about to be lynched, I would suggest lynching them despite the late claim, and if they flip town, we can assume they were a PR.

3. If all scum have to claim PR or VT D1, they will not be able to claim PR late. We will know PRs claims were fake if the claimants flip scum.

4. I think it is better not to discuss in detail the ways the mafia can use the buddy feature to their advantage.

[worcej]

##unvote Xorxes

You clearly havent broken enough setups yet for the novelty to wear off and for it to get boring. There is only opposition and stubborness ahead, and were probably going to end up mislynching some towny today that is flat-out refusing.

Anyways, lets see where this goes. Ill not be the one to be difficult for once (or anymore than I have already).

I claim PR.

I will not back down and break. I am not claiming and will not ask for a sub due to my lack of enjoyment.

Lynch me D1 if you don't like it, but I am playing to my win condition - scum benefit more from the claim and those pushing it know it.

[bozotheclown]

I assume this is a joke.

Also, bozo is feeling extremely tone-dead and is likely scum this game

##vote bozo

Just going to get it over with. The thought process of 'expose all PRs for a small increase to lynching' is ridiculous.

Yes, revealing information about the PRs is the trade off.

[worcej]

The fun for me is in finding scum. I don't believe a massclaim breaks this game, it just improves our chances of finding scum. It forces scum to make tough decisions early, before they have time to consult with their teammates. I don't really see any fun in playing suboptimally. The only acceptable reason to play a game suboptimally is when you are playing with a child and you want to make it fun for them, so you don't do your best to win.

Incorrect. I find great joy in playing (some) games suboptimally, because often suboptimal strategies can be more interesting. There's a fun to optimising, but there's also a fun to doing something wacky and unexpected. It varies up the game and prevents it from being more of the same. I'm not necessarily saying any of that applies to Mafia, but playing suboptimally is not just for playing against children.

Playing suboptimally in a team game (and this is one) is really bad, as most people expect and act based on the supposition everyone on the team will try to play optimally.

By 'playing optimally', you are increasing scum's chances of winning. You're gambling on the fact that you can just guess quicker from piles than the scum team can neutralize the PR pool.

[bozotheclown]

##unvote Xorxes

You clearly havent broken enough setups yet for the novelty to wear off and for it to get boring. There is only opposition and stubborness ahead, and were probably going to end up mislynching some towny today that is flat-out refusing.

Anyways, lets see where this goes. Ill not be the one to be difficult for once (or anymore than I have already).

I claim PR.

I will not back down and break. I am not claiming and will not ask for a sub due to my lack of enjoyment.

Lynch me D1 if you don't like it, but I am playing to my win condition - scum benefit more from the claim and those pushing it know it.

##VOTE worcej

[worcej]

Not sure if worcej being so careless with these numbers means he is more likely town or scum. I'm leaning town.

I missed the scout master, but interpret how you will.

You were also counting 6 scum.

No I didn't. S-S is 1 pair, the remaining 3 scum can be with town.

1+1+1+1 = 4...

[worcej]

Now who is bad at counting

Xorxes

[bozotheclown]

PR: xorxes, Vecna, flash, emc
VT: damo, rdrivera, HR, bozo, Durga, Donny, summit

[worcej]

Essentially Vecna, you've managed to manoeuvre yourself into a position where you were simultaneously the biggest opponent of a massclaim and the person who ensured one happened, and can therefore claim credit no matter how good or bad an idea it turns out to be. It's not a very good look.

Very true statement right here.

[worcej]

As usual, I believe we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "proper mafia". My idea of "proper mafia" is to do everything you can within the rules to win.

If you have yet to realize the frustration Vecna and myself are projecting - it's annoying that we turn a game of subterfuge into and stop actually really scum hunting via actions/words and instead just start sorting out piles.

If I wanted that, I'd play 52 card pickup.

I believe I understand the opinion you and Vecna are expressing with your general opposition to mass claims. However, in my opinion, arguing against a mass claim for that reason is like arguing that the PRs should not use their abilities because it takes away from "scum hunting via actions/words".

The PRs are part of the actions.

You're gaming the game for an 'advantage' at a cost of our strong chess pieces. It's like trading your Bishops and Knights to get the other Pawns off the board to free up room for the Queen.

[worcej]

8 town players have unique roles (PRs), 7 town players are VT. If all mafia claim to be VTs, the 8 PRs are all clear, the A/B roles do not matter. If a mafia claims to be a town PR, and later claim to be an FAE or TCG, they will be counterclaimed by the real FAEs and TCGs, which is not a good situation for the mafia either, especially if they NK in the PRs and hit one of the CCs.

How is it not? say 2 mafia claim PR, and they each move to the FAE and TCG, they are hidden in piles of 3 players. Odds are we mislynch 2 times sorting it out as they continue to kill players.

That is where you get to do your "scum hunting via actions/words" to avoid the mislynches.

Yeah, well done. Way to sacrifice your advantage to try to sort out a group of 3 twice, let alone the rest of the VT camp by allowing scum to neutralize.

[worcej]

PR: xorxes, Vecna, flash, emc
VT: damo, rdrivera, HR, bozo, Durga, Donny, summit
Not Participating: worcej

[bozotheclown]

PR: xorxes, Vecna, flash, emc
VT: damo, rdrivera, HR, bozo, Durga, Donny, summit
Not Participating: worcej

If you are town, will you let yourself get lynched without telling us if you are a PR?

[TheFlyingBoat]

PR: xorxes, Vecna, flash, emc, TFB
VT: damo, rdrivera, HR, bozo, Durga, Donny, summit
Not Participating: worcej

I still think this is a stupid plan but whatever a majority of people seem on board so I'll do it.

[worcej]

PR: xorxes, Vecna, flash, emc
VT: damo, rdrivera, HR, bozo, Durga, Donny, summit
Not Participating: worcej

If you are town, will you let yourself get lynched without telling us if you are a PR?

I’ll do what I need to do to prove a point.