M55: The Last Party - Game Thread

[Vecna]

As Chaqa has pointed out, there is no good reason to assume that Bunny knowing xorxes' role implicates the QT or clears Bunny. It is much simpler to assume there is a Mafia Role Cop or Power Thief.

Furthermore, Vecna, why would you think there is scum in the QT when you believe Neph and damo are the two remaining scum?

This is an interesting catch, but may just be in-line with his tunneling tinfoil all game.

How is it an interesting catch? Did you even read the conversation?

[Chaqa]

My one question about EOD:

Why did Chaqa switch when he did?

All day he'd advocated for Squigs and no-lynch. He was set to get his wish. He acknowledged it. THEN he switches to break the tie to vote for
I don't understand why anyone is townreading Chaqa at this point. Advocating no-lynch that hard is scummy. Voting the way he did is scummy. Everything he does and says is scummy, and the whole scum!neighborizer even fits with a scum!doctor and a counter to all the scans and protectives.

I really don't understand what he is thinking if he is town. I've tried. But it's just so much easier to understand what scum!chaq is thinking that I keep coming back to it.

@chaq: help me out here.

Here was your answer.

I’m not sold either way yet but I am going to say since we can’t get unanimous on Squigs, we should just get Temasek now.

^^ for Bunny

But basically I was concerned we would lynch Squigs and he wouldn’t have any targets to shoot, or he might blow up and fuck with us somehow.

It’s not convincing. The case:

1) why break the tie at all?!
2) why have you been so insistent that your new cultists let you know things as soon as you invite them?
3) why are you sure the rest of the sex cult is town?
4) why did you not invite Neph to coordinate defense? If you are Town and you suspect he’s scum, that’s one thing. But you also claim all the time at the top of your lungs that he’s town

Nothing you do is even close to internally consistent. I cannot fathom even the “confused hunting town” narrative BECAUSE YOURE NOT HUNTING YOURE INSISTING THE GAME IS OVER. The only way this all makes sense is if you’re scum trying to hurry the game along.

Why not read the reason I gave when I made the vote?

I’m not sold either way yet but I am going to say since we can’t get unanimous on Squigs, we should just get Temasek now.

The idea was if Squigs was the Vengeful, we needed unanimous votes on him so he could shoot ANYONE who he and the town found scummy.

So many voters were moving off of his wagon, likely because they were afraid of getting shot, so we deferred to the other scummy person on the block that day.

I don't need to write eighty paragraphs a day to be hunting.

I also don't like to make any assumptions when new information is about to present iself (i.e. a death at EoN).

Why waste my limited time on a theory that will be outdated soon?

[Chaqa]

1) I am not scum
2) if you are town, I will DEFINITELY admit I have no idea how you play
3) I don’t know what your first language is

English lol

But I often feel like yours isn’t, despite your claims it is.

Amazingly I was a professor specializing in teaching new college students to read and write logical arguments clearly. It’s part of why is very clear to me you’re trying to bully everyone into not analyzing things. You’re just trying to tell them to be bored at the long night. Stop analyzing different possibilities. Next you’ll insist they just hammer me day 7 because it’s obvious. This is a tactic is writing.

And I'm a software engineer who had a heavy background in logic and discrete math in school. That's why I've eliminated so many people as potential scum and have my pool limited to the ones I've been mentioning.

A long night IS boring. We spent 40 hours waiting to see who dies tonight. Dull AF.

[foodcoats]

If you trust the QT to be town, this is not a very good suggestion. Damo is just as likely to be the lawyer (more imo, but thats up for debate) - and we can still get useful information from Bunny if he actually IS town here. We also have other ways to verify at least bunnies role, and id like to see what he digs up here.

I think the way the redirect was used, when we did not yet know with certainty that there is a lawyer, makes it very, very likely that Bunny is the lawyer. It prevented Bunny from being roleblocked.

If Nephthys is town, the jailer would act before the redirector.

This is a fair point, but it does not address the fact that it is a vastly safer play to redirect from scum-to-scum. Even if the jailer could've screwed with the redirection, the redirection still safeguarded against scanning.

[foodcoats]

I dont particularly agree with all the logic of this post.

If youre scum and you want to protect bunny from investigatives, is redirecting him to squigs really the way you do it? Because its been demonstrated time and time again that people know if they suddenly have a different target.

It couldve just been a poorly thought out hail mary, but the redirect part feels like a waste. Much more likely they just use it to set up bunny and make him suspicious.

also, scum doesnt actually need to make me look suspicious. If there is a hidden scum that is unsuspected, they know they already have the numbers to lynch me easily later on. If there is any smart scumplay going on at all, Im being kept alive as a mislynch later on for sure.

Vecna, your logic is deeply flawed here.

First of all, scum thrive on uncertainty. You are claiming that, because those who are redirected know they were redirected, it is more optimal for scum to redirect from a town player to a scum player.

This is categorically wrong because redirecting from a scum to a scum player produces just as much uncertainty for town, no more or less.

Further, you are assuming that scum is in such a dominant position that they were willing to accept leaving an extra member of their team open to 1) investigation or 2) jailing - and in the case of their Lawyer/JOAT being jailed, losing their lawyering ability for the night. You are saying that they were willing to do all that, rather than simply protect one of their own with the redirection and create just as much WIFOM as they would anyway.

Finally, if you think Bunny is likely to be town, and knowing now that xorxes, Chaqa, Jamie, bozo and myself are all not scum (or Jamie's claim to be Babysitting scum would've been abused with the NK), then you are claiming that the scum team exists in the following set: Vecna, Nephthys, summit, damo.

Is that correct? I assume you are not claiming scum for yourself, and I assume that you are also not honestly believing summit is scum. Do you believe that the two remaining scum are Nephthys and damo?

If the other scum are well hidden, redirecting a suspicious town, as a town BunnyGo would be, to Squigs would be a good play, to increase the chances of a false cop scan on Squigs and to potentially set up BunnyGo.

bozo, who, according to your POE and scumreads, could be these deeply hidden scum? Based on everything you know, which two players could feasibly have been so far beyond suspicion that scum felt they did not need to use the protective abilities of the redirector?

[BunnyGo]

The fact it came shortly after you acknowledged you could get your desired no-lynch makes NO sense to me. Why not let someone else move first? You might have gotten your no-lynch. You definitely would have gotten better data and reads.

This just smacked me so much of what *I* ended up doing I last game as scum. I think you panicked and couldn’t figure out what face you wanted to present: bus teammate and try for draw vs get a mislynch. You panicked and tried for every thing.

[Chaqa]

The fact it came shortly after you acknowledged you could get your desired no-lynch makes NO sense to me. Why not let someone else move first? You might have gotten your no-lynch. You definitely would have gotten better data and reads.

This just smacked me so much of what *I* ended up doing I last game as scum. I think you panicked and couldn’t figure out what face you wanted to present: bus teammate and try for draw vs get a mislynch. You panicked and tried for every thing.

As much as I wanted a no-lynch, if I had been forcibly trying to cause one I'd be drawn and quartered, because for some insane reason our community thinks a no-lynch is the mark of the devil.

[Chaqa]

Go re-read Mafia game #1 sometime.

I advocated strongly for a no-lynch on Day 1 and was lynched because of it.

First ever webdip mafia death.

[BunnyGo]

The fact it came shortly after you acknowledged you could get your desired no-lynch makes NO sense to me. Why not let someone else move first? You might have gotten your no-lynch. You definitely would have gotten better data and reads.

This just smacked me so much of what *I* ended up doing I last game as scum. I think you panicked and couldn’t figure out what face you wanted to present: bus teammate and try for draw vs get a mislynch. You panicked and tried for every thing.

As much as I wanted a no-lynch, if I had been forcibly trying to cause one I'd be drawn and quartered, because for some insane reason our community thinks a no-lynch is the mark of the devil.

And why not wait and HUNT by seeing who jumped first?! *IF* you are Town, you killed any chance you had of getting a read on late movement that lynch.

[foodcoats]

@Nephthys: I think you MUST jail BunnyGo tonight as it gives us the best chance of jailing the scum lawyer/JOAT with lawyering abilities. This gives town the best possible chance to get a good scan, as we need to jail the lawyer for summit's scan to be viable.

Jailing BunnyGo prevents us from getting any information on BunnyGo, unless maybe if there is no NK. I think we want to hear BunnyGo's scan result, as well as allow scans on BunnyGo without a redirector around.

I suppose it is just as likely that damo is the Lawyer/JOAT-lawyer, and that they redirected from Bunny knowing that damo had already been scanned and we were not yet aware there was a lawyer, so the likelihood of damo being re-scanned were incredibly low.

On the other hand, I would be very suspicious of any result Bunny were to give, unless it was also corroborated by another scanner.

I concede, either choice would be a good jailer target. Nephthys, you should randomly determine via coinflip whether to jail Bunny or damo.

[BunnyGo]

The fact it came shortly after you acknowledged you could get your desired no-lynch makes NO sense to me. Why not let someone else move first? You might have gotten your no-lynch. You definitely would have gotten better data and reads.

This just smacked me so much of what *I* ended up doing I last game as scum. I think you panicked and couldn’t figure out what face you wanted to present: bus teammate and try for draw vs get a mislynch. You panicked and tried for every thing.

As much as I wanted a no-lynch, if I had been forcibly trying to cause one I'd be drawn and quartered, because for some insane reason our community thinks a no-lynch is the mark of the devil.

And why not wait and HUNT by seeing who jumped first?! *IF* you are Town, you killed any chance you had of getting a read on late movement that lynch.

From my POV *you* were the panicked late movement. That’s the data. You also prevented town!chaqa from learning anything. More data.

[Chaqa]

The fact it came shortly after you acknowledged you could get your desired no-lynch makes NO sense to me. Why not let someone else move first? You might have gotten your no-lynch. You definitely would have gotten better data and reads.

This just smacked me so much of what *I* ended up doing I last game as scum. I think you panicked and couldn’t figure out what face you wanted to present: bus teammate and try for draw vs get a mislynch. You panicked and tried for every thing.

As much as I wanted a no-lynch, if I had been forcibly trying to cause one I'd be drawn and quartered, because for some insane reason our community thinks a no-lynch is the mark of the devil.

And why not wait and HUNT by seeing who jumped first?! *IF* you are Town, you killed any chance you had of getting a read on late movement that lynch.

Vecna, damo, summit, and Jamie had all already jumped at that point.

Much more interesting to see who would jump back to Squigs to prove their towniness. (Hint: it was Jamie. Why do you think I was so certain he was town?)

[BunnyGo]

As much as I wanted a no-lynch, if I had been forcibly trying to cause one I'd be drawn and quartered, because for some insane reason our community thinks a no-lynch is the mark of the devil.

And why not wait and HUNT by seeing who jumped first?! *IF* you are Town, you killed any chance you had of getting a read on late movement that lynch.

Vecna, damo, summit, and Jamie had all already jumped at that point.

Much more interesting to see who would jump back to Squigs to prove their towniness. (Hint: it was Jamie. Why do you think I was so certain he was town?)

Because you are scum...

[bozotheclown]

Vecna, your logic is deeply flawed here.

First of all, scum thrive on uncertainty. You are claiming that, because those who are redirected know they were redirected, it is more optimal for scum to redirect from a town player to a scum player.

This is categorically wrong because redirecting from a scum to a scum player produces just as much uncertainty for town, no more or less.

Further, you are assuming that scum is in such a dominant position that they were willing to accept leaving an extra member of their team open to 1) investigation or 2) jailing - and in the case of their Lawyer/JOAT being jailed, losing their lawyering ability for the night. You are saying that they were willing to do all that, rather than simply protect one of their own with the redirection and create just as much WIFOM as they would anyway.

Finally, if you think Bunny is likely to be town, and knowing now that xorxes, Chaqa, Jamie, bozo and myself are all not scum (or Jamie's claim to be Babysitting scum would've been abused with the NK), then you are claiming that the scum team exists in the following set: Vecna, Nephthys, summit, damo.

Is that correct? I assume you are not claiming scum for yourself, and I assume that you are also not honestly believing summit is scum. Do you believe that the two remaining scum are Nephthys and damo?

If the other scum are well hidden, redirecting a suspicious town, as a town BunnyGo would be, to Squigs would be a good play, to increase the chances of a false cop scan on Squigs and to potentially set up BunnyGo.

bozo, who, according to your POE and scumreads, could be these deeply hidden scum? Based on everything you know, which two players could feasibly have been so far beyond suspicion that scum felt they did not need to use the protective abilities of the redirector?

You and Chaqa would be one example.

[bozotheclown]

As much as I wanted a no-lynch, if I had been forcibly trying to cause one I'd be drawn and quartered, because for some insane reason our community thinks a no-lynch is the mark of the devil.

And why not wait and HUNT by seeing who jumped first?! *IF* you are Town, you killed any chance you had of getting a read on late movement that lynch.

Vecna, damo, summit, and Jamie had all already jumped at that point.

Much more interesting to see who would jump back to Squigs to prove their towniness. (Hint: it was Jamie. Why do you think I was so certain he was town?)

What are you referring? No one move from Temasek to Squigs after you voted for Temasek.

[BunnyGo]

And why not wait and HUNT by seeing who jumped first?! *IF* you are Town, you killed any chance you had of getting a read on late movement that lynch.

Vecna, damo, summit, and Jamie had all already jumped at that point.

Much more interesting to see who would jump back to Squigs to prove their towniness. (Hint: it was Jamie. Why do you think I was so certain he was town?)

What are you referring? No one move from Temasek to Squigs after you voted for Temasek.

I think he thinks that by ignoring the point and saying anything he can sound like he’s responding. And bashing me, part of his plan redirecting from me to squigs.

[bozotheclown]

@Nephthys: I think you MUST jail BunnyGo tonight as it gives us the best chance of jailing the scum lawyer/JOAT with lawyering abilities. This gives town the best possible chance to get a good scan, as we need to jail the lawyer for summit's scan to be viable.

Jailing BunnyGo prevents us from getting any information on BunnyGo, unless maybe if there is no NK. I think we want to hear BunnyGo's scan result, as well as allow scans on BunnyGo without a redirector around.

I suppose it is just as likely that damo is the Lawyer/JOAT-lawyer, and that they redirected from Bunny knowing that damo had already been scanned and we were not yet aware there was a lawyer, so the likelihood of damo being re-scanned were incredibly low.

On the other hand, I would be very suspicious of any result Bunny were to give, unless it was also corroborated by another scanner.

I concede, either choice would be a good jailer target. Nephthys, you should randomly determine via coinflip whether to jail Bunny or damo.

I do not think BunnyGo should be in the consideration for jailing, I would rather see Nephthys jail no one.

[Chaqa]

And why not wait and HUNT by seeing who jumped first?! *IF* you are Town, you killed any chance you had of getting a read on late movement that lynch.

Vecna, damo, summit, and Jamie had all already jumped at that point.

Much more interesting to see who would jump back to Squigs to prove their towniness. (Hint: it was Jamie. Why do you think I was so certain he was town?)

What are you referring? No one move from Temasek to Squigs after you voted for Temasek.

I misread the bot. Jamie had moved from Temasek to Squigs and back before that.

[bozotheclown]

One thing that is almost certain about D5 is that the remaining mafia were voting for Squigs and moved to Temasek. Pushing to lynch Temasek would have been a risk when it looked unlikely a Squigs lynch could be avoided, so if Vecna, damo, or summit are mafia, they were risking looking suspicious if Squigs was lynched. We know Jamie was town, so BunnyGo, Chaqa, foodcoats are in the range where you would expect scum to go for the mislynch.

[foodcoats]

If the other scum are well hidden, redirecting a suspicious town, as a town BunnyGo would be, to Squigs would be a good play, to increase the chances of a false cop scan on Squigs and to potentially set up BunnyGo.

bozo, who, according to your POE and scumreads, could be these deeply hidden scum? Based on everything you know, which two players could feasibly have been so far beyond suspicion that scum felt they did not need to use the protective abilities of the redirector?

You and Chaqa would be one example.

So you believe that Chaqa or I would believe Jamie was bluffing when he claimed he was Babysitting scum? Jamie repeatedly called me scummy. Why would I risk him Babysitting me and order an NK on him nevertheless?