M55: The Last Party - Game Thread

[BunnyGo]

True. I forgot to consider that. I would shift him to on par with Vecna then

It kept xorxes and summit from clearing me. It allowed them to have very high odds of success of getting the lawyer action to work on squigs. If xorxes hadn’t spoken up, it’s not unlikely I’d have been a mislynch instead of squigs.

Why do you think scum were so certain you'd be scanned? The redirector effectively allowed them to Lawyer two players at once. The straightforward play, to my mind, is that they would use it on a second scum so that 2/3rds of the time, if a scum was cop-scanned, the result would be a clear on Squigs, who was lawyered. Using the redirector on town was the riskier play.

Who do you think would mastermind such a risky play? What information or claims do you think led them to believe they could get away with it?

If you look back, a lot of people were saying how scummy I was. I wasn't sure why (except POE and some dargo stuff?). So I was expecting summit to clear me. I was also expecting summit might scan squigs to be sure (not completely necessary, since we were going to lynch, but would be nice). What other person did you expect summit to scan that night? Who else was likely? I think if scum was thinking about it, they'd realize this too.

Who would mastermind an insane play like this? Chaq. Chaqa does crazy shit, and it sometimes works. Why not redirect to him (or a different teammate)? Because that would look even weirder (also, they couldn't be sure summit wasn't just scanning squigs directly), and they were planning on sacrificing squigs soon anyways. Squigs could even make the claim he did knowing that Xorxes might be able to test him because they didn't expect him to make it to the end.

Get away with what? the lawyer-ish effect on Squigs? They almost did until xorxes stomped it.

[Nephthys]

So effectively yall are happy for me to choose, as long as I get the exact 1/10 required to block the NK

Otherwise I'm scum?

[BunnyGo]

So effectively yall are happy for me to choose, as long as I get the exact 1/10 required to block the NK

Otherwise I'm scum?

I mean...do it a your own risk, and know that 3 of us are scanning for scum. So be careful.

[foodcoats]

Bunny, can you explain what you meant when you said earlier that your N2 ability would not do anything unless you were acted on? Later you said that on odd nights you are investigative and on even nights you are your "other action," which I assume to be your absorber/learner action.

But you are claiming you learned xorxes' action on N5, an odd night. So you could not get the ability to use it, only investigate it.

Unless you absorb/learn on odd nights, and you had it backwards? But if you are investigating on even nights, why did you say below that your N2 ability does nothing on its own? Does that mean you need to investigate someone and they also need to put an action on you for you to learn about their role?

Unclear. I’ve asked a couple times and not had responses. That said, my role would likely have no responses if nobody did anything to me to cause one AND there’s a jailer and lightning rod on N1

Ah. Just heard back that he got a message N1 that his action failed because he couldn’t find foodc.

How can your role have no responses if nobody did anything to you, and at the same time your action fail because you couldn't find foodc?

What I mean is:

N1 there would be an expected response. It didn't come because foodc was not found. I had not been informed previously (despite asking with a ##CALL GM in forum) that such a fail message had been delivered.

My role would get no response N2 on its own.

If somebody targeted me N2 (like a doc save or who knows what's going on) then maybe I'd get a message for that (I didn't).

N3 I did get a message, it was not what I was expecting, but it was amusing and informative.

Can copy ability on even nights.

Is your role considered investigative?  If you visit someone who has used up their power, like Vecna or foodcoats, would you still be able to copy their power?  Are you allowed to copy someone's power more than once?  If you had visited the Third Party Lead Inquisitor, do you know if you would have been able to start your own 3P faction?  If we had no-lynched D1, and you had visited emc N1, could you have copied his power and switch to town?

It actually changes. I am investigative on odd nights, and my other action on even.

I don’t steal alignment, and I don’t steal items, I learn skills. I’ll ask GM about what he intended for rdr, but I’m guessing it’d be kill/start a QT ability. But I dont know why you think it would start a new 3P. I could study with chaqa and start my own QT that way.

I assume that since EMC would not have done an action for me to study, I wouldn’t copy him. I’ll ask worcej, but I doubt he considered that interaction.

[BunnyGo]

Bunny, can you explain what you meant when you said earlier that your N2 ability would not do anything unless you were acted on? Later you said that on odd nights you are investigative and on even nights you are your "other action," which I assume to be your absorber/learner action.

But you are claiming you learned xorxes' action on N5, an odd night. So you could not get the ability to use it, only investigate it.

Unless you absorb/learn on odd nights, and you had it backwards? But if you are investigating on even nights, why did you say below that your N2 ability does nothing on its own? Does that mean you need to investigate someone and they also need to put an action on you for you to learn about their role?

How can your role have no responses if nobody did anything to you, and at the same time your action fail because you couldn't find foodc?

What I mean is:

N1 there would be an expected response. It didn't come because foodc was not found. I had not been informed previously (despite asking with a ##CALL GM in forum) that such a fail message had been delivered.

My role would get no response N2 on its own.

If somebody targeted me N2 (like a doc save or who knows what's going on) then maybe I'd get a message for that (I didn't).

N3 I did get a message, it was not what I was expecting, but it was amusing and informative.

Is your role considered investigative?  If you visit someone who has used up their power, like Vecna or foodcoats, would you still be able to copy their power?  Are you allowed to copy someone's power more than once?  If you had visited the Third Party Lead Inquisitor, do you know if you would have been able to start your own 3P faction?  If we had no-lynched D1, and you had visited emc N1, could you have copied his power and switch to town?

It actually changes. I am investigative on odd nights, and my other action on even.

I don’t steal alignment, and I don’t steal items, I learn skills. I’ll ask GM about what he intended for rdr, but I’m guessing it’d be kill/start a QT ability. But I dont know why you think it would start a new 3P. I could study with chaqa and start my own QT that way.

I assume that since EMC would not have done an action for me to study, I wouldn’t copy him. I’ll ask worcej, but I doubt he considered that interaction.

I was asked about messages I would get at EON. I was being complete. I would get no message for my action N2. If somebody targeted me, I might get a message.

I learn/absorb on odd nights. That's correct. did I say even somewhere?

According to my role, I learn by watching them do an action. So I learned by watching Xorxes act. It doesn't matter who he was acting on. Had I studied with Neph last night, I could jail someone tonight.

My N2 ability would get me no response on its own because I had failed to study with anyone on N1, so I was doing nothing according to worcej. The same is true N4 as I again failed to study on N3.

[Chaqa]

So effectively yall are happy for me to choose, as long as I get the exact 1/10 required to block the NK

Otherwise I'm scum?

Neph, just do whatever. I’m not voting for you no matter what tomorow, you’re basically town for me

[Vecna]

To flesh out some of my additonal thoughts on Vecna,

a 2x veteran seems very odd.

@Vecna, what were the 120 pages you haven't read?

A lot of stuff in the 200-320 range

he claims this yet here are his posts from those pages, definitely reading
http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs

Why is a 2x veteran odd?

I said a lot of stuff in that range, not all of the stuff

These arent thoughts why you scumread someone

[Vecna]

@Neph, regarding your action tonight:

If you jail Chaqa or bozo you won't be interfering with my action, otherwise consider not jailing anyone please. summit may or may not want to scan one of them, so...

Alternatively, you can try to save me or summit, but if you guess wrong and one is killed and the other one is roleblocked by you, you will probably be lynched. So choose wisely if you want to go that way.

Alternatively, you may want to try to jail the killer, but if you miss and you protect someone from a scan, you will also be suspicious.

So don't say what you will do, but don't mess things up.

Isnt just jailing damo the best action?

highest probability of being the modifier (i think?).

Then you/summit/bunny scan 3 different people and if were right on damo we just won the game with 2 new results.

ofcourse wifom'ing in bunny/damo for whoever the modifier can be in case bunny is fakeclaiming also works.

we _NEED_ results on me and mostly on neph here

[Vecna]

@Neph, regarding your action tonight:

If you jail Chaqa or bozo you won't be interfering with my action, otherwise consider not jailing anyone please. summit may or may not want to scan one of them, so...

Alternatively, you can try to save me or summit, but if you guess wrong and one is killed and the other one is roleblocked by you, you will probably be lynched. So choose wisely if you want to go that way.

Alternatively, you may want to try to jail the killer, but if you miss and you protect someone from a scan, you will also be suspicious.

So don't say what you will do, but don't mess things up.

I agree with this. Jailing yourself or nobody is probably the most towny options. I’m scanning where xorxes told me. I hope summit considers scanning chaqa since neither I nor xorxes can.

Jailing bozo is fine, but who knows if it bothers him or if summit is planning on scanning him (I doubt it)

jailing himself is terrible since it stop potential investigations and doing it on damo is like a free use no? Unless xorxes is thinking of investigating there to circumvent the modifier thing or w/e.

[Vecna]

@Neph, regarding your action tonight:

If you jail Chaqa or bozo you won't be interfering with my action, otherwise consider not jailing anyone please. summit may or may not want to scan one of them, so...

Alternatively, you can try to save me or summit, but if you guess wrong and one is killed and the other one is roleblocked by you, you will probably be lynched. So choose wisely if you want to go that way.

Alternatively, you may want to try to jail the killer, but if you miss and you protect someone from a scan, you will also be suspicious.

So don't say what you will do, but don't mess things up.

I agree with this. Jailing yourself or nobody is probably the most towny options. I’m scanning where xorxes told me. I hope summit considers scanning chaqa since neither I nor xorxes can.

Jailing bozo is fine, but who knows if it bothers him or if summit is planning on scanning him (I doubt it)

If he jails himself he can't be scanned, that's not a towny option, unless he thinks he will be NKd.

neph getting nk'd. One can dream I guess

[damo666]

Only Bozo, Bunny and me can realistically be the deflector/redirector thing. If Xorxes is to be believed Bozo is clear, I am town hence Bunny is scum.

His partner? Chaqa or Naph probably.

Xorxes didn’t say bozo was clear!! He said he scanned him. That’s different.

Squigs was the redirector. Did you mean something else?

Moment of madness. Forgot Squigs was redirector. Head confused. Ignore. Sorry.

[Vecna]

@Neph, regarding your action tonight:

If you jail Chaqa or bozo you won't be interfering with my action, otherwise consider not jailing anyone please. summit may or may not want to scan one of them, so...

Alternatively, you can try to save me or summit, but if you guess wrong and one is killed and the other one is roleblocked by you, you will probably be lynched. So choose wisely if you want to go that way.

Alternatively, you may want to try to jail the killer, but if you miss and you protect someone from a scan, you will also be suspicious.

So don't say what you will do, but don't mess things up.

I agree with this. Jailing yourself or nobody is probably the most towny options. I’m scanning where xorxes told me. I hope summit considers scanning chaqa since neither I nor xorxes can.

Jailing bozo is fine, but who knows if it bothers him or if summit is planning on scanning him (I doubt it)

If he jails himself he can't be scanned, that's not a towny option, unless he thinks he will be NKd.

its a good thought though

why is scum killing all other protectives over Neph? A doctor with all these investigates is understandable.

A random one they know potentially nothing about? hmmm

Jailkeeper can be used offensively to catch scum and roleblock their shit as well.

[damo666]

Which interactions in particular do you think are best explained as scum vs. scum?

I had a post (currently on phone) showing that Neph jailing Vecna to protect from Jamie could have been Scummy of both. ESPECIALLY if I’m correct about Chaqa being a scummy neighborizer. Xorxes not being able to test Chaq and Chaq asking about everyone’s roles before joining only encourages this.

If there are 3 scum left. I think Chaq/Neph/Vecna isn’t unlikely. If only 2 left, Chaq/Vecna could be.

As xorxes said, we never remember the dead town, but clearly Jamie scumread Vecna, and there are good reasons to scumread Chaq.

Yes, that is something that COULD have happened.

But consider. There were 10 players N5. If you know you are town and you know Squigs was scum, there were 8 players with probably 2, or maybe 3, other scum. That means the likelihood they are both scum is 25% of 25%, or about 6%; or 37.5% of 37.5%, 14%. It is much more likely just one of them is scum, and far more likely that neither is.

A possible scum strategy with a very low probability is no reason to lynch.

What other reasons make you think it is scum theater? If there is one that is more likely scum than the other, who do you think it is and why?

1/28 and 3/28 but nvm

[damo666]

If you say so

You disagree?

I think if Neph wants to jail himself, he should feel free. I think he should feel free to do anything, actually. But if he interferes with a scan, it looks bad for him. If he saves a NK, it looks good for him. I think him jailing himself is pretty unlikely to interfere with anything. I think him jailing Chaqa might (especially after you asked summit to consider scanning Chaq). I think him jailing you or summit or me DEFINITELY interferes with a scan. The rest...who knows?

Well if he hails summit we lynch him

[damo666]

Bunny, can you explain what you meant when you said earlier that your N2 ability would not do anything unless you were acted on? Later you said that on odd nights you are investigative and on even nights you are your "other action," which I assume to be your absorber/learner action.

But you are claiming you learned xorxes' action on N5, an odd night. So you could not get the ability to use it, only investigate it.

Unless you absorb/learn on odd nights, and you had it backwards? But if you are investigating on even nights, why did you say below that your N2 ability does nothing on its own? Does that mean you need to investigate someone and they also need to put an action on you for you to learn about their role?

What I mean is:

N1 there would be an expected response. It didn't come because foodc was not found. I had not been informed previously (despite asking with a ##CALL GM in forum) that such a fail message had been delivered.

My role would get no response N2 on its own.

If somebody targeted me N2 (like a doc save or who knows what's going on) then maybe I'd get a message for that (I didn't).

N3 I did get a message, it was not what I was expecting, but it was amusing and informative.

It actually changes. I am investigative on odd nights, and my other action on even.

I don’t steal alignment, and I don’t steal items, I learn skills. I’ll ask GM about what he intended for rdr, but I’m guessing it’d be kill/start a QT ability. But I dont know why you think it would start a new 3P. I could study with chaqa and start my own QT that way.

I assume that since EMC would not have done an action for me to study, I wouldn’t copy him. I’ll ask worcej, but I doubt he considered that interaction.

I was asked about messages I would get at EON. I was being complete. I would get no message for my action N2. If somebody targeted me, I might get a message.

I learn/absorb on odd nights. That's correct. did I say even somewhere?

According to my role, I learn by watching them do an action. So I learned by watching Xorxes act. It doesn't matter who he was acting on. Had I studied with Neph last night, I could jail someone tonight.

My N2 ability would get me no response on its own because I had failed to study with anyone on N1, so I was doing nothing according to worcej. The same is true N4 as I again failed to study on N3.

So you get a one chance use the next available phase. Is that how it works?

[damo666]

@Neph, regarding your action tonight:

If you jail Chaqa or bozo you won't be interfering with my action, otherwise consider not jailing anyone please. summit may or may not want to scan one of them, so...

Alternatively, you can try to save me or summit, but if you guess wrong and one is killed and the other one is roleblocked by you, you will probably be lynched. So choose wisely if you want to go that way.

Alternatively, you may want to try to jail the killer, but if you miss and you protect someone from a scan, you will also be suspicious.

So don't say what you will do, but don't mess things up.

Isnt just jailing damo the best action?

highest probability of being the modifier (i think?).

Then you/summit/bunny scan 3 different people and if were right on damo we just won the game with 2 new results.

ofcourse wifom'ing in bunny/damo for whoever the modifier can be in case bunny is fakeclaiming also works.

we _NEED_ results on me and mostly on neph here

Neph can jail me if he likes. A reasonable town option. It wont affect my ability and will eliminate me from any declared or perceived night actions. Narrows scumscppe including if Neph scum himself.

[foodcoats]

Hi Bunny,

I'm sorry, but I am still confused. It is imperative that we understand how your ability works, because it is so important for town's success. If you have a one-shot of xorxes' ability, that is critical to town winning. But I believe the redirection from you to Squigs strongly implies you are the Mafia Lawyer, and Nephthys should jail you tonight.

That makes understanding your role claim IMPERATIVE to town's success. This may be the most crucial night phase of the game. If you are town, I am certain you will help me understand you here!

I have bolded in the quotes below the sections that are causing me confusion, and I repeat them here:

You originally stated, "My role would get no response N2 on its own." You have also just stated, "I would get no message for my action N2. If somebody targeted me, I might get a message." This claim seems to be saying you have an action, but it does not receive messages, or that your role is like Vecna's claimed PGO role, where your role activates involuntarily when someone visits you.

But you also stated, "I am investigative on odd nights, and my other action on even." And you just said, "I learn/absorb on odd nights. That's correct." These two statements seem diametrically opposed, as I had originally understand that learning was your investigative ability, and that your other ability was absorption of some kind.

So now, the difficulty in my understanding is, what exactly is your action on even nights? I had assumed your "other action" was absorption, because you specifically opposed it to your ability to investigate people on odd nights. Again, you said you are "investigative on odd nights, and my other action on even."

Finally, you claim, "My N2 ability would get me no response on its own because I had failed to study with anyone on N1, so I was doing nothing according to worcej."

Are you saying you are a Vanilla Townie on even nights if you do not absorb a power on odd nights? If that is the case, why wouldn't you say "my power only works on odd nights?" Your original claims seem to be suggesting you have an innate power on both nights, and that it changes between the two powers. This also doesn't make sense with you saying, "My role would get no response N2 on its own" or "I would get no message for my action N2." Shouldn't you just have said, "I had no action N2?" Why did you imply you had an action N2 when, as you now claim, you actually have no action on even nights unless you are successful on odd nights?

Bunny, can you explain what you meant when you said earlier that your N2 ability would not do anything unless you were acted on? Later you said that on odd nights you are investigative and on even nights you are your "other action," which I assume to be your absorber/learner action.

But you are claiming you learned xorxes' action on N5, an odd night. So you could not get the ability to use it, only investigate it.

Unless you absorb/learn on odd nights, and you had it backwards? But if you are investigating on even nights, why did you say below that your N2 ability does nothing on its own? Does that mean you need to investigate someone and they also need to put an action on you for you to learn about their role?

What I mean is:

N1 there would be an expected response. It didn't come because foodc was not found. I had not been informed previously (despite asking with a ##CALL GM in forum) that such a fail message had been delivered.

My role would get no response N2 on its own.

If somebody targeted me N2 (like a doc save or who knows what's going on) then maybe I'd get a message for that (I didn't).

N3 I did get a message, it was not what I was expecting, but it was amusing and informative.

It actually changes. I am investigative on odd nights, and my other action on even.

I don’t steal alignment, and I don’t steal items, I learn skills. I’ll ask GM about what he intended for rdr, but I’m guessing it’d be kill/start a QT ability. But I dont know why you think it would start a new 3P. I could study with chaqa and start my own QT that way.

I assume that since EMC would not have done an action for me to study, I wouldn’t copy him. I’ll ask worcej, but I doubt he considered that interaction.

I was asked about messages I would get at EON. I was being complete. I would get no message for my action N2. If somebody targeted me, I might get a message.

I learn/absorb on odd nights. That's correct. did I say even somewhere?

According to my role, I learn by watching them do an action. So I learned by watching Xorxes act. It doesn't matter who he was acting on. Had I studied with Neph last night, I could jail someone tonight.

My N2 ability would get me no response on its own because I had failed to study with anyone on N1, so I was doing nothing according to worcej. The same is true N4 as I again failed to study on N3.

[Vecna]

Xorxes, do you have any objection to bunny fullclaiming what your role exactly does at EoN?

so that we can confirm his role before your potential demise? (so he doesnt get a chance to first see the role pm and then just use that to infer what type of result he wouldve gotten).

[Vecna]

Now....bunny....some questions for you

1: What is the result if you wouldve targetted someone without an activated but a triggered ability?

2: What is your logic to target xorxes and get an investigative ability only next night, while its been pretty obvious for a while that scum have at least 2 roles that visit people? Why not just try to get a DIRECT guilty on scum by finding the modifier or the role that was doing the redirecting?

[foodcoats]

It kept xorxes and summit from clearing me. It allowed them to have very high odds of success of getting the lawyer action to work on squigs. If xorxes hadn’t spoken up, it’s not unlikely I’d have been a mislynch instead of squigs.

Why do you think scum were so certain you'd be scanned? The redirector effectively allowed them to Lawyer two players at once. The straightforward play, to my mind, is that they would use it on a second scum so that 2/3rds of the time, if a scum was cop-scanned, the result would be a clear on Squigs, who was lawyered. Using the redirector on town was the riskier play.

Who do you think would mastermind such a risky play? What information or claims do you think led them to believe they could get away with it?

If you look back, a lot of people were saying how scummy I was. I wasn't sure why (except POE and some dargo stuff?). So I was expecting summit to clear me. I was also expecting summit might scan squigs to be sure (not completely necessary, since we were going to lynch, but would be nice). What other person did you expect summit to scan that night? Who else was likely? I think if scum was thinking about it, they'd realize this too.

Who would mastermind an insane play like this? Chaq. Chaqa does crazy shit, and it sometimes works. Why not redirect to him (or a different teammate)? Because that would look even weirder (also, they couldn't be sure summit wasn't just scanning squigs directly), and they were planning on sacrificing squigs soon anyways. Squigs could even make the claim he did knowing that Xorxes might be able to test him because they didn't expect him to make it to the end.

Get away with what? the lawyer-ish effect on Squigs? They almost did until xorxes stomped it.

This is not accurate, insofar as most of the suspicion was heaped on Vecna N5, and I would say you were equally suspected with Chaqa. (I have just reread the N5 thread entirely.)

The idea that scum would try such a ploy implies they would work very hard to figure out who the investigatives would target. It implies they would feel absolutely confident that both investigatives would target the same person. Based on the debate N5, there could be basically no way for scum to be confident that both xorxes and summit would scan the same person - because although xorxes analyzed on N5, summit remained silent, so there was no ability to cross-reference - and if they did, I think the logical assumption would be Vecna, not you, because Vecna was heavily questioned - whereas the ideas about BunnyGo being scum were not very deep or pursued at length.

I understand your logic, but it is biased with you at the centre of your story. If scum was looking at N5 and deciding to try a high-risk play to cast aspersions, they would've most likely done it to Vecna, who was at the centre of an inquisition N5.