M55: The Last Party - Game Thread

[e.m.c^42]

Sorry, I don't understand the question. Am I being an idiot?

I believe Donny was scum. If Donny was scum, you have to be scum. Therefore, I think you are scum.

If there's a mistake in my logic, please point it out.

You can say that my premise is wrong, that I am wrong that Donny was scum, and maybe I am. But you're not saying that, you are arguing that I'm committing some logical fallacy, that my reasoning is wrong. That pisses me off, because I know you are smarter than that.

I don't have any issues with you scumreading Donny. That's legitimate, and not a bad premise. My one issue is this:

If Donny was scum, you have to be scum

Because I do not know where this connection came from. All I can find from your posts is that it is because I claimed information about him, and you explicitly said that that is not it. So I am confused.

[xorxes]

The reason to lynch Donny had to do with a very convincing (at least to me) scumslip. If you say you inherited his alignment, it's hard to see you as town.

I don't believe nor strongly disbelieve the 3P story.

My main case against emc is that I think Donny was scum, and for emc to be town it is required that Donny be town.

Okay what do people think we gain from lynching emc?

For me that's the main reason, it pretty much tells us Donny's alignment

We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Hmm. Forgive me if I have not yet found the way of looking at this that doesn't make it inconsistent.

Forgive me if I don't see where you see the inconsistency.

[xorxes]

The reason to lynch Donny had to do with a very convincing (at least to me) scumslip. If you say you inherited his alignment, it's hard to see you as town.

I don't believe nor strongly disbelieve the 3P story.

My main case against emc is that I think Donny was scum, and for emc to be town it is required that Donny be town.

For me that's the main reason, it pretty much tells us Donny's alignment

We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Hmm. Forgive me if I have not yet found the way of looking at this that doesn't make it inconsistent.

I guess I can narrow it down to just "emc claimed Donny was town so I will scumread him for that", which is kind of poor reasoning from xorx.

Anyone else, thoughts?

How is it poor reasoning? If I believe Donny was scum, and you claim to know he was town, then either my belief about Donny is wrong, or you're scum. There is no third option.

So as long as I maintain my belief that Donny was scum, I have to believe that you are as well.

You calling this poor reasoniong reinforces my conviction that you are indeed scum.

[Nephthys]

Ok, but the issue that this is circular logic. Why would I flip scum? Since according to you, that is solely due to Donny.

emc I'm missing something here. What's wrong with the logic that you could flip scum based on Donny being scum? If Donny is scum, you basically have to be, unless you're town lying about your role and/or Donny's alignment. That would be pretty messed up and anti-town, so that's basically impossible.

I'm not saying I'm totally on board with xorxes' conviction here, but I don't see how his logic is circular.

The problem lies in that if you genuinely believe that Donny was scum, it's incompatible with the idea that I'm being absolutely honest about being 3P that inherited his role. Unless, of course, you are the type of player that would trust everything a scum player says.

So say that Donny was scum, and I am now scum too. Why the hell would I say anything about his alignment to Chaqa? It's absolutely a benefit for me that no-one knows the flip. Why would I claim 3P, or tracker?

Because if we believe you it sets up a dichotomy, where you and chaqa are not scum together. Therefore I think you are both scum

[kgray]

Ok, but the issue that this is circular logic. Why would I flip scum? Since according to you, that is solely due to Donny.

emc I'm missing something here. What's wrong with the logic that you could flip scum based on Donny being scum? If Donny is scum, you basically have to be, unless you're town lying about your role and/or Donny's alignment. That would be pretty messed up and anti-town, so that's basically impossible.

I'm not saying I'm totally on board with xorxes' conviction here, but I don't see how his logic is circular.

The problem lies in that if you genuinely believe that Donny was scum, it's incompatible with the idea that I'm being absolutely honest about being 3P that inherited his role. Unless, of course, you are the type of player that would trust everything a scum player says.

So say that Donny was scum, and I am now scum too. Why the hell would I say anything about his alignment to Chaqa? It's absolutely a benefit for me that no-one knows the flip. Why would I claim 3P, or tracker?

Okay, I think I see what you're saying. I think it comes down to: if someone genuinely believes Donny was scum, they're not going to believe you're being honest about calling him town in any circumstance. It doesn't matter if you're really a 3p role (no matter what you say Donny's alignment is), or a scum role. You can't be town.

No one is saying that if Donny is scum, you're being honest about inheriting his role.... I do not think anyone thinks you're scum who inherited the scum role from Donny because of your original 3rd party role. If you are scum, the 3p story is a cover of some sort, but I admit I don't know why you'd go through the trouble to claim that.

Also if you are scum, then the point about nobody knowing the flip is moot because you'd probably lie about Donny's role/alignment. But I don't know why you'd claim 3p or tracker.

I am not sure yet if I believe your story. That's why I'm not saying xorxes is right and we need to lynch you now. I think he's tunneling a bit. But I don't think he's making up logic to argue his point.

[xorxes]

##vote bozo
Am I terrible for voting people who vote me
I just dont like him

Lol I don't blame you, but do you think he's doing it maliciously as scum? Or just, this is personal.

You truly think town!bozo would have something personal against Sarah?

[e.m.c^42]

The reason to lynch Donny had to do with a very convincing (at least to me) scumslip. If you say you inherited his alignment, it's hard to see you as town.

You scumread me because of my claim that I inherited his alignment.

I don't believe nor strongly disbelieve the 3P story.

Now you say that my claim that I inherited his alignment has nothing to do with your scumread.

My main case against emc is that I think Donny was scum, and for emc to be town it is required that Donny be town.

For me that's the main reason, it pretty much tells us Donny's alignment

You want to lynch me specifically and explicitly to find out Donny's alignment.

We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Now you say you don't care about whatever information on Donny that can be gained from lynching me, if I flip a certain way.

Hmm. Forgive me if I have not yet found the way of looking at this that doesn't make it inconsistent.

Forgive me if I don't see where you see the inconsistency.

[xorxes]

Are you f-ing serious? We don't need to learn anything else if you flip scum, we will be very happy. Although we would learn a lot more as well, but that's secondary.

Ok, but the issue that this is circular logic. Why would I flip scum? Since according to you, that is solely due to Donny.

emc I'm missing something here. What's wrong with the logic that you could flip scum based on Donny being scum? If Donny is scum, you basically have to be, unless you're town lying about your role and/or Donny's alignment. That would be pretty messed up and anti-town, so that's basically impossible.

I'm not saying I'm totally on board with xorxes' conviction here, but I don't see how his logic is circular.

Thank you! I thought I was going crazy for a minute.

[Vecna]

@Vecna: What are you drinking on?

More serious questions:

@xorx: Is there more to emc's proposed lynch than Sunk Cost Fallacy? emc and Chaqa aren't allignment indicative of each other (UNLESS there is a 3P recruitment team, in which case I would think Chaqwa is a better target)

@flash: Why do you think massclaim is better now than it was yesterday (Or, more to the point, why have it so high on your list of options), and do you have any scumreads?

wifes bday. 4 bottles of champagne and amarula

[kgray]

Sure, all of his posts and all of my posts after he died. But if you're scumreading me then you have no reason to believe that I'm Donny's role, do you?

Right. But the logic is if Donny is scum, then emc is scum. Not if emc is scum, Donny is scum, or if emc is scum then he took Donny's role.

What is the link between Donny and I, then? If I didn't say anything, there would be absolutely no relation between us two, correct?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I believe that. I don't know why you would, unless for some reason you accidentally told Chaqa something and needed some cover?

[kgray]

This is the part that I still don't get. If you don't believe what I'm saying about my role, then why do you still treat it as if it's true?

How am I treating it as if it's true? I don't want to lynch you based on that claim of yours.

The reason to lynch Donny had to do with a very convincing (at least to me) scumslip. If you say you inherited his alignment, it's hard to see you as town.

Does this not say that you are basing a scumread off of my claim? Someone else weigh in here.

I believe it is based off your claim that Donny is town, not your claim about being 3p.

[xorxes]

They won´t be clear, clear, but we consider them clear for a while. I hardly believe scum will let them live really long so we will have an answer. With so many roles around town best chance to win is to have a pool of clears or semi-clears.

You are aware of course that anyone we try to lynch will claim some role, right? So when whoever we try to lynch instead of emc claims a town role probably of similar value/testability as Tracker, what do we do?

We have to deal with it case by case. Scum doesn´t have an easy task choosing a fake claim and I don´t want to give tips to scum on scum tactics.
But I am not saying to not lynch emc because he claimed Tracker, but because I think he is town (I believe in his story, can´t find a logic reason to fake all this as scum or 3p).

That's an acceptable position. You also must believe that Donny did some weird gymnastics to learn about the secretary role then, and was also just new town looking scummy. I don't say it's impossible. If you can argue that someone is more scummy than Donny then I can be persuaded to vote elsewhere. I don't want to move to a policy lynch just because emc claimed Tracker though.

[xorxes]

This is the part that I still don't get. If you don't believe what I'm saying about my role, then why do you still treat it as if it's true?

How am I treating it as if it's true? I don't want to lynch you based on that claim of yours.

The reason to lynch Donny had to do with a very convincing (at least to me) scumslip. If you say you inherited his alignment, it's hard to see you as town.

Does this not say that you are basing a scumread off of my claim? Someone else weigh in here.

Sigh... I'm not basing it on your particular claim. If he was scum, and you claim that for whatever reason you know he is town, then you are lying. If you are lying, you are scum. I don't have to believe your claim in order to think that you're scum.

[kgray]

You are aware of course that anyone we try to lynch will claim some role, right? So when whoever we try to lynch instead of emc claims a town role probably of similar value/testability as Tracker, what do we do?

We have to deal with it case by case. Scum doesn´t have an easy task choosing a fake claim and I don´t want to give tips to scum on scum tactics.
But I am not saying to not lynch emc because he claimed Tracker, but because I think he is town (I believe in his story, can´t find a logic reason to fake all this as scum or 3p).

That's an acceptable position. You also must believe that Donny did some weird gymnastics to learn about the secretary role then, and was also just new town looking scummy. I don't say it's impossible. If you can argue that someone is more scummy than Donny then I can be persuaded to vote elsewhere. I don't want to move to a policy lynch just because emc claimed Tracker though.

xorxes if you do assume Donny was scum, what's your theory as to why emc said anything about Donny's role at all? Why would he bother going through all this just to try to convince town that Donny was town? Why not just claim coroner or a lie detector or something?

[Chaqa]

Why did you tell Chaqa about your role if you wanted to keep it hidden?

I was going to out him if he didn't lol

Wasn't he asking why I didn't lie to you in the first place? Lol

Ooooh

[e.m.c^42]

I guess I can narrow it down to just "emc claimed Donny was town so I will scumread him for that", which is kind of poor reasoning from xorx.

Anyone else, thoughts?

How is it poor reasoning? If I believe Donny was scum, and you claim to know he was town, then either my belief about Donny is wrong, or you're scum. There is no third option.

So as long as I maintain my belief that Donny was scum, I have to believe that you are as well.

You calling this poor reasoniong reinforces my conviction that you are indeed scum.

Okay, say that I only claimed Donny was town. Would you not consider he was perhaps godfather and I scanned? This feels like a retcon lol

But ignoring all of that.

As scum, what is my motivation in claiming Donny is town? And in such a fashion as well.

[bozotheclown]

You are aware of course that anyone we try to lynch will claim some role, right? So when whoever we try to lynch instead of emc claims a town role probably of similar value/testability as Tracker, what do we do?

We have to deal with it case by case. Scum doesn´t have an easy task choosing a fake claim and I don´t want to give tips to scum on scum tactics.
But I am not saying to not lynch emc because he claimed Tracker, but because I think he is town (I believe in his story, can´t find a logic reason to fake all this as scum or 3p).

That's an acceptable position. You also must believe that Donny did some weird gymnastics to learn about the secretary role then, and was also just new town looking scummy. I don't say it's impossible. If you can argue that someone is more scummy than Donny then I can be persuaded to vote elsewhere. I don't want to move to a policy lynch just because emc claimed Tracker though.

I agree with rdrivera, as bad as Donny's secretary reference looked, I find it hard to believe emc would fabricate this story or reveal his role to Chaqa if he was scum.

[e.m.c^42]

Why do I pull the whole 3P shenanigan? Why do I include Chaqa in it?

You're the one who told me some games ago to look at motivations and context lol

[bozotheclown]

I was going to out him if he didn't lol

Wasn't he asking why I didn't lie to you in the first place? Lol

Ooooh

Yes, emc was correct about what I was asking.

[xorxes]

TLDR Rd strikes me as null.

@Rd

What makes Jamie and summit questionable to you?

Do you think bozo not making an impression is scum indicative and if so, why?

What I find odd about Jamiet is he more then once not readind closely the thread and asking things already discussed or obvious. When I made that comment he was pushing kgray about his vote on Sarah D1, when it was something discussed in the thread to be a backup in case someone messed with the main wagon (shoot him, commute him before EOD, etc).

Summit is the reaction to EON, and the Vecna crumbing 3P thing, it looks more like someone tryingt to show effot then real effort. But he isn´t on my top scumreads, I liked most of his other comments.

Bozo not making an impression is weird to me, I usually scumread him a lot, even when he is town, but I will not say it´s scum indicative. And I liked some comments he made after that post. At this point I would say Fox worries me more then Bozo.

You really think summit pointing out Vecna's 3P thing was scummy? It was towny, or NAI at worst, but how could it be scummy? Would you not point that out if you noticed it as town? I'd really like to hear what Vecna says about it when he wakes up from his hangover.