M55: The Last Party - Game Thread

[kgray]

kgray do you know you are my new fav player?

I did not know that, and thanks for saying so. fwiw, I'm glad you decided to play this game.

[xorxes]

And also, foodcoats saying we shouldn't bother thinking too hard is so so so scummy.

I disagree. This is what I've been talking about for a couple games now. Scum think about how their statements will be interpreted, so I think it's very unlikely that scum would say things like that.

Good on paper, in practice it's more complicated than that. This was you last game:

Here's why I think Jamiet is town: scum would have been paying close attention to Kgray's reads, and paying close attention to people who were going back to try to dissect her reads. So I think in general that scum would have recognized that I was quoting Kgray's reads. Jamiet confused my summary of Kgray's reads for my own, ergo, Jamiet was not paying close attention to Kgray's reads, from which we conclude he is not scum.

So assuming that scum would not do or say something because they can predict exactly how it will be interpreted is not always right. Saying that we should not bother thinking about Bonny's connections is objectively scummy. Town say scummy things sometimes, as do scum.

[kgray]

And also, foodcoats saying we shouldn't bother thinking too hard is so so so scummy.

I disagree. This is what I've been talking about for a couple games now. Scum think about how their statements will be interpreted, so I think it's very unlikely that scum would say things like that.

I see what you're saying. But I really think that brushing off analysis based on Donny's interactions is a terrible idea. I obviously don't think we should assume Donny was scum and never challenge that, but if town never looked at interactions before getting a confirmed scum flip we'd never get anywhere.

[xorxes]

Since we do not know how many mafia there are, it does not mean too much that we did not find out his alignment.

I have already criticised the second part of this statement, but on re-reading, what is the sense in the first half of it, even?

Bozo doesn't care what alignment Donny was, because we don't know how many Mafia there are.

What?

That was indeed a strange comment from bozo. As if his alignment only mattered for figuring out the numbers.

[worcej]

GM Note:
Just as an FYI please be sure to PM me your orders, if you have any, so that I ensure I process them correctly.

Also, I have a work meeting exactly at EON, so expect some delays. I will do my best to multi-task to accomplish this - you can thank COVID for most meetings now being conference calls instead of in-person.

[Jamiet99uk]

The commonly used name for what?

This doesnt deserve an answer

I am just trying to understand what you were saying when you said you "thought secretary was the official role as well". I must be missing something.

I don't like answering for other people, but I can point out the really, really obvious answer to this if you'll allow me to?

[Foxcastle]

And also, foodcoats saying we shouldn't bother thinking too hard is so so so scummy.

I disagree. This is what I've been talking about for a couple games now. Scum think about how their statements will be interpreted, so I think it's very unlikely that scum would say things like that.

Good on paper, in practice it's more complicated than that. This was you last game:

Here's why I think Jamiet is town: scum would have been paying close attention to Kgray's reads, and paying close attention to people who were going back to try to dissect her reads. So I think in general that scum would have recognized that I was quoting Kgray's reads. Jamiet confused my summary of Kgray's reads for my own, ergo, Jamiet was not paying close attention to Kgray's reads, from which we conclude he is not scum.

So assuming that scum would not do or say something because they can predict exactly how it will be interpreted is not always right. Saying that we should not bother thinking about Bonny's connections is objectively scummy. Town say scummy things sometimes, as do scum.

It's not perfect, no. And I'm not saying that scum can predict exactly how they will be interpreted. I'm just saying they are more careful about it in a way that town isn't, and I think that's a useful lesson from recent games.

Also I'm not sure why you quoted that particular snippet?

[bozotheclown]

This doesnt deserve an answer

I am just trying to understand what you were saying when you said you "thought secretary was the official role as well". I must be missing something.

I don't like answering for other people, but I can point out the really, really obvious answer to this if you'll allow me to?

OK with me.

[Foxcastle]

And also, foodcoats saying we shouldn't bother thinking too hard is so so so scummy.

I disagree. This is what I've been talking about for a couple games now. Scum think about how their statements will be interpreted, so I think it's very unlikely that scum would say things like that.

I see what you're saying. But I really think that brushing off analysis based on Donny's interactions is a terrible idea. I obviously don't think we should assume Donny was scum and never challenge that, but if town never looked at interactions before getting a confirmed scum flip we'd never get anywhere.

Oh, I agree that we should not brush off analysis based on Donny's actions. Day 1 is important. And I think Donny was scum, even if we can't know it and that will make it harder.

My point is that what foodcoats said looks scummy, and scum avoid doing things that look scummy. (And as I said to Xorxes, it's not perfectly true, but Damo and Worcej last games are great examples.)

[Jamiet99uk]

I am just trying to understand what you were saying when you said you "thought secretary was the official role as well". I must be missing something.

I don't like answering for other people, but I can point out the really, really obvious answer to this if you'll allow me to?

OK with me.

Right then, I will.

Clearly, he's talking about the commonly used, official name for the role that was being discussed. i.e. a role which allows some form of daytime scum messaging.

Yes?

Why did you find that hard to understand?

[bozotheclown]

Since we do not know how many mafia there are, it does not mean too much that we did not find out his alignment.

I have already criticised the second part of this statement, but on re-reading, what is the sense in the first half of it, even?

Bozo doesn't care what alignment Donny was, because we don't know how many Mafia there are.

What?

That was indeed a strange comment from bozo. As if his alignment only mattered for figuring out the numbers.

Let me rephrase then.

Despite it being horrific that we do not know Donny Dude's alignment for the purposes of drawing conclusions from his interactions, at least in does not also result in us not knowing how many more scum we have to lynch, since we already did not know that.

[bozotheclown]

I don't like answering for other people, but I can point out the really, really obvious answer to this if you'll allow me to?

OK with me.

Right then, I will.

Clearly, he's talking about the commonly used, official name for the role that was being discussed. i.e. a role which allows some form of daytime scum messaging.

Yes?

Why did you find that hard to understand?

No, I am still missing what Nephthys was saying about the "plausible" explanation having to do with the "official role".

[Jamiet99uk]

OK with me.

Right then, I will.

Clearly, he's talking about the commonly used, official name for the role that was being discussed. i.e. a role which allows some form of daytime scum messaging.

Yes?

Why did you find that hard to understand?

No, I am still missing what Nephthys was saying about the "plausible" explanation having to do with the "official role".

The talk about the "official role" relates back to the discussion about whether the role in question would more commonly be called "encryptor" or "secretary".

I'm still really struggling to understand why this is so difficult for you to parse. You normally have a good command of the English language.

[bozotheclown]

It is one person at night every night

Why did you wait until page 40 to crumb your role?

I was considering at the time going for another mass claim plus I knew my play was going to get me lynched at some point

When Donny Dude posted his "crumb" on page 40, he did not have any votes, so he did not have a very good reason to be worried about being lynched at that point. He did have 3 votes earlier, so it is possible crumbing a role was suggested to him by a secretary after he had picked up 3 early votes.

[Jamiet99uk]

Let me rephrase then.

Despite it being horrific that we do not know Donny Dude's alignment for the purposes of drawing conclusions from his interactions, at least in does not also result in us not knowing how many more scum we have to lynch, since we already did not know that.

This is still a weird attitude.

The way you say this makes it sound like your point is:

"Oh well, it's bad that we don't know Donny's alignment, but it's good that we don't know how many scum there are."

Why are you presenting it as some kind of positive thing that we don't know the number of scum?

[bozotheclown]

Right then, I will.

Clearly, he's talking about the commonly used, official name for the role that was being discussed. i.e. a role which allows some form of daytime scum messaging.

Yes?

Why did you find that hard to understand?

No, I am still missing what Nephthys was saying about the "plausible" explanation having to do with the "official role".

The talk about the "official role" relates back to the discussion about whether the role in question would more commonly be called "encryptor" or "secretary".

I'm still really struggling to understand why this is so difficult for you to parse. You normally have a good command of the English language.

Thanks, I think I understand what Nephthys was saying now.

From what I could find from a search, encryptor seems to be as role that allows mafia day chat, but the secretary role from M44 and M46 only allowed the secretary to talk. I found 2 different reference to the mafia role of secretary that are different from the role definition used in M46 and M44. However, Donny Dude said he received his knowledge of the secretary role by reviewing old games here, so I agree the part about secretary not being an "official" role across all mafia platforms is not relevant, assuming Donny Dude's knowledge of mafia is limited to this site.

[bozotheclown]

Let me rephrase then.

Despite it being horrific that we do not know Donny Dude's alignment for the purposes of drawing conclusions from his interactions, at least in does not also result in us not knowing how many more scum we have to lynch, since we already did not know that.

This is still a weird attitude.

The way you say this makes it sound like your point is:

"Oh well, it's bad that we don't know Donny's alignment, but it's good that we don't know how many scum there are."

Why are you presenting it as some kind of positive thing that we don't know the number of scum?

My point was it could have been worse.

[xorxes]

I disagree. This is what I've been talking about for a couple games now. Scum think about how their statements will be interpreted, so I think it's very unlikely that scum would say things like that.

Good on paper, in practice it's more complicated than that. This was you last game:

Here's why I think Jamiet is town: scum would have been paying close attention to Kgray's reads, and paying close attention to people who were going back to try to dissect her reads. So I think in general that scum would have recognized that I was quoting Kgray's reads. Jamiet confused my summary of Kgray's reads for my own, ergo, Jamiet was not paying close attention to Kgray's reads, from which we conclude he is not scum.

So assuming that scum would not do or say something because they can predict exactly how it will be interpreted is not always right. Saying that we should not bother thinking about Bonny's connections is objectively scummy. Town say scummy things sometimes, as do scum.

It's not perfect, no. And I'm not saying that scum can predict exactly how they will be interpreted. I'm just saying they are more careful about it in a way that town isn't, and I think that's a useful lesson from recent games.

Also I'm not sure why you quoted that particular snippet?

Because Jamie was scum and you were townreading him for doing something careless that "scum would never do".

[Foxcastle]

Good on paper, in practice it's more complicated than that. This was you last game:



So assuming that scum would not do or say something because they can predict exactly how it will be interpreted is not always right. Saying that we should not bother thinking about Bonny's connections is objectively scummy. Town say scummy things sometimes, as do scum.

It's not perfect, no. And I'm not saying that scum can predict exactly how they will be interpreted. I'm just saying they are more careful about it in a way that town isn't, and I think that's a useful lesson from recent games.

Also I'm not sure why you quoted that particular snippet?

Because Jamie was scum and you were townreading him for doing something careless that "scum would never do".

I think you've chosen a poor example from last game, one that's more the reverse of my point. Jamiet made (or manufactured) a mistake as scum that looked (to me) like a mistake a townie would not have made. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about scum being more careful to not look scummy, and town being less careful about it.

The relevant examples from last game are Damo and Worcej.

[Vecna]

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