wD Mafia Master Post

[brainbomb]

mu now bans ppl for things they do offsite. if you ruin a game, copy paste role pms, or deadpost on other forums mu will ban you.

dyachei dyachei is offline
Everyone's mom
dyachei's Avatar

Head ModeratorPronounsshe/her/hersGenderFemale
Jaiden was banned for game-breaking behavior on another site. On that site, they knowingly outed a role list in one game, ruining the game on D1. In addition, they willfully outed the wolf list in another game. Due to the egregious nature of these offenses, Jaiden will no longer be able to play games on our site.

[brainbomb]

up your standards. if you want these games to be serious and competitive, stop allowing jamie to call for peoples heads ingame

[Foxcastle]

I am not particularly interested in becoming more like MU or being serious or competitive. I am interested in mafia games that I can look at in between diplomacy moves that aren't full of bile.

[Jamiet99uk]

1) If the GMs cannot handle players contacting them with complaints about other players, and if the GMs cannot look at those complaints and sort out when to ask someone to play nice and when to tell someone that their complaint has been heard but it doesn't rise to the level of action, then they shouldn't be GM'ing.

I fundamentally agree. And on that basis, I would support your proposal. I will, however, expect all GMs to be held to the same standard.

2) Do you speak to your boss and coworkers like you speak to your pub friends? Do you speak to shop owners and service people like you speak to your pub friends? How about to other players in face-to-face diplomacy games or other social settings with a mix of acquaintances and people you don't know?

If you can't be respectful of other people who are not your fellow hooligans, in an environment where anonymity increases vitriol and text-based communication increases misunderstanding, then at some point the mods are going to decide we are more trouble than we're worth and hide the entire Forum Games section, and the mafia community here will just quietly die out.

I respect my boss and consider him a friend, and regularly swear and use vulgarities when in his presence but out of earshot of others. I respect some of my coworkers, but have little respect for some others. However, with regard to co-workers and other people I encounter in my professional role, I place a great deal of importance in my professional integrity. I therefore take care to be professional and composed at all times. I occasionally use deliberately-deployed offhand or flippant remarks to break the ice or relieve tension, but I am absolutely never vulgar in such conversations. I am paid to interact with those people and rarely engage in games or frivolity with them. I save that for outside of work.

The same is largely true of my academic community although there is more overlap between academic pursuits and social engagement, since I regard a number of my academic contacts as my friends. With them I can be frivolous, though rarely vulgar.

I treat shop workers and service people with respect and dignity if I can, provided they do the same.

I am perfectly capable of politeness, respectfulness, and kindness. I tend to regard many of the people I play Mafia with, however, as my "fellow hooligans", as you put it. I expect them to be able to take a bit of rough-and-tumble and I give as good as I get. When I started playing this game the people who stood out to me were people like Vecna, and Durga (or DO as she was at the time), and ND; people who would happily swear and cuss and use acidic put-downs as part of the sharp-edged cut-and-thrust of their discourse as they played. I never had a problem with their language and I think we are all in danger of getting rather overly gentrified and genteel and nicey-nicey.

Mafia is, after all, a game where accusing your fellow player of being a lying scumbag who ought to be killed, is just a natural part of the game.

Would you walk into the office and point a gun at your boss or co-worker?

Would you walk into a shop and loudly call for the shop owner and their staff to be rounded up and lynched?

[Foxcastle]

Obviously, you have very carefully read the social cues at work and in other settings, but have failed to read the social cues here. We're having this debate because we are not your fellow hooligans and several of us are uncomfortable with how toxic you (and others) have occasionally gotten. We are not saying you have to be nicey-nicey at all times, or that you can't cuss, be sharp-tongued, or enjoy the cut-and-thrust of heated discourse. This isn't about the baseline, it's about the vicious, over-the-line personal attacks that you and Brainbomb, and occasionally others, get into with each other at various times.

Arguments like "this is just how I am" and "I'm just old fashioned and a little rough around the edges" and "nobody else thinks it's a problem" and "you need to be tougher and deal with it" aren't good enough when, after every other game, we have to try to have this debate about whether we can avoid the blow ups that we're talking around here.

[Jamiet99uk]

Obviously, you have very carefully read the social cues at work and in other settings, but have failed to read the social cues here. We're having this debate because we are not your fellow hooligans and several of us are uncomfortable with how toxic you (and others) have occasionally gotten. We are not saying you have to be nicey-nicey at all times, or that you can't cuss, be sharp-tongued, or enjoy the cut-and-thrust of heated discourse. This isn't about the baseline, it's about the vicious, over-the-line personal attacks that you and Brainbomb, and occasionally others, get into with each other at various times.

Arguments like "this is just how I am" and "I'm just old fashioned and a little rough around the edges" and "nobody else thinks it's a problem" and "you need to be tougher and deal with it" aren't good enough when, after every other game, we have to try to have this debate about whether we can avoid the blow ups that we're talking around here.

Ok a few things here.

First of all, I think you're exaggerating the frequency of this discussion, but ok.

Second of all, Brainbomb is continuing to personally attack me in this thread despite my repeated appeals to him to be calm and to stop it, to the point I had to mute him. I don't know what you want me to do about that.

Third of all, as I've said, I will happily agree to abide by a rule of the kind you're proposing - provided that I get the same in return from everyone else.

[dargorygel]

Hi
I am not really here. I announced a few months ago that I was hiding in a corner webdipwise for a while. Extra work opportunities were a higher priority.

But I love the site... and particularly this game.

Having not been (officially) replaced on the Council, I'll add my two cents worth. I would much rather have a self-policing game than a Council or Mod policed game. But maybe I was wrong in my hopes and my high opinion of the adults here.

It's not, to me, a matter of tougher rules. (Although fwiw, I don't mind the statement recently proposed.) It is a matter of players/participants intending at the beginning to have manners matter more than winning. Maybe even to be more focused on adjusting my own behavior than only looking at what others are doing... or at least only COMMENTING on what others are doing.

I am naive, optimistic, and I tend to choose to trust rather than choose to assume the worst. To forget the 'history.' Even with SOME troublers, this is what brought me into this game.

Thoughtful, funny, clever people playing a game that has boundaries internally (meaning ME in MY mind and heart) enforced rather than the 'rulebook.'

I'd sign the statement proposed.

Let's get on to the game.

[brainbomb]

You might think that I invite the negativity directed at me. Fake claiming, antics, dishonesty, and reckless play are confusing to people.

If you think I deserve to be attacked every game and always called dishonest then we have a problem. Im regularly shut down and gaslighted on this site by abusive posters who want me to feel ashamed. There are people actively attacking me for anything and everything they can come up with every game. If I post less I am attacked, if I post a lot I am attacked for talking too much. If I dont post 150 times a phase im called a lurker. If I fake claim people act like this is new and shocking. If I real claim people just say im lying. When I catch scum no one listens. When I push scum people just say ill change my mind.

theres literally nothing fun about playing here. its depressing. I do it because theres 2 or 3 ppl here who are still okay to interact with. its become a fetid marsh of assholery. Full of angry spiteful people who just wanna see people face a guillotine if a game goes downhill. If a player isnt glued to the game theyre up to no good. Not that it matters because when they are here everyones trying to be rambo.
All anyone wants is to solve the game by themself with zero teamwork or comraderie.

I cant tell you how many times ive won here anymore. it feels like its been actual years since a great game occurred.

[brainbomb]

the games were much higher in quality back in the Mteens-M20s because players wanted to win. They wanted to play ghug and durga. they were thrilled at HR and goldfinger and vash and meme signing up. y2k, and ND, krellin.

The fun players stopped playing because of poor leadership. a council with no actual power. and an angry coalition of piss poor bridezillas who wanna look perfect and dont care who they marry ban or kill

[brainbomb]

I had more fun playing here when I actually wanted people to think I was good at this.

[damo666]

Is this a fair summary?

1. Rules should be obeyed

2. GMs should enforce the rules.

3. If a player is uncomfortable with the level of abuse in a game they should contact the GM to complain and the GM (if they deem it appropriate) should contact the abuser to ask them to stop (or tone down).

4. Consequences of continued abuse ignoring requests to stop have not been addressed.

.......... .........

I think it would be a good idea that if anyone is uncomfortable with the tone of a post they should say so in the thread. Do this even if it has been already said. It will then quickly become apparent which kinds of post are deemed offensive.

[Jamiet99uk]

Is this a fair summary?

1. Rules should be obeyed

2. GMs should enforce the rules.

3. If a player is uncomfortable with the level of abuse in a game they should contact the GM to complain and the GM (if they deem it appropriate) should contact the abuser to ask them to stop (or tone down).

4. Consequences of continued abuse ignoring requests to stop have not been addressed.

.......... .........

I think it would be a good idea that if anyone is uncomfortable with the tone of a post they should say so in the thread. Do this even if it has been already said. It will then quickly become apparent which kinds of post are deemed offensive.

Yes, this is a fair summary. I would suggest the response to (4) is Modkill or replacement after a public GM warning which has then been ignored.

Damo, what do you think of Foxcastle's suggestion that the "everyone must play to their win condition" rule should be removed because it is practically impossible to enforce?

[rdrivera2005]

I think we should try this once with a GM that's willing to enforce it and see how it works before putting I to the rules. I can see it easily getting really out of control as GMs will have to decide what is offensive or not, and it's something I personally will never agree to do if I was a GM.

I always thought the general site rules should apply to Mafia, simple as that.

[rdrivera2005]

Is this a fair summary?

1. Rules should be obeyed

2. GMs should enforce the rules.

3. If a player is uncomfortable with the level of abuse in a game they should contact the GM to complain and the GM (if they deem it appropriate) should contact the abuser to ask them to stop (or tone down).

4. Consequences of continued abuse ignoring requests to stop have not been addressed.

.......... .........

I think it would be a good idea that if anyone is uncomfortable with the tone of a post they should say so in the thread. Do this even if it has been already said. It will then quickly become apparent which kinds of post are deemed offensive.

Yes, this is a fair summary. I would suggest the response to (4) is Modkill or replacement after a public GM warning which has then been ignored.

Damo, what do you think of Foxcastle's suggestion that the "everyone must play to their win condition" rule should be removed because it is practically impossible to enforce?

The "everyone must play to their win condition" should be considered objectively. You can't concede in the game thread, you can't be modkilled on purpose, things like that. Other things like fake claiming, self voting that are subjective are out of this rule as they can be a valid tool.

[damo666]

Is this a fair summary?

1. Rules should be obeyed

2. GMs should enforce the rules.

3. If a player is uncomfortable with the level of abuse in a game they should contact the GM to complain and the GM (if they deem it appropriate) should contact the abuser to ask them to stop (or tone down).

4. Consequences of continued abuse ignoring requests to stop have not been addressed.

.......... .........

I think it would be a good idea that if anyone is uncomfortable with the tone of a post they should say so in the thread. Do this even if it has been already said. It will then quickly become apparent which kinds of post are deemed offensive.

Yes, this is a fair summary. I would suggest the response to (4) is Modkill or replacement after a public GM warning which has then been ignored.

Damo, what do you think of Foxcastle's suggestion that the "everyone must play to their win condition" rule should be removed because it is practically impossible to enforce?

It is basically covered by rule 6, particularly in the elaboration. Clearly playing to lose would be against the spirit of the game.

The elabaration to rule 7 is also flawed in that the requirement your actions are to advance your win condition is clearly nonsense. In fact this can used as an excuse tu use abuse because "I made the other player all emotional and it harmed his game."

All we need is players to not give up, drop out or intentionally lose. This can be covered in the elabaration to rule 6.

So, yes, I agree with Fox. Rule 7 is redundant.

[damo666]

Maybe amend rule 6 to encompass rule 7 to something like

All players are required to play within the spirit of the game and in particular are forbidden from cheating or deliberately trying to sabotage their team's chances of winning.

[Fluminator]

If you guys think this is bad and full of drama/vitriol check out mafiascum games

[worcej]

I think we should try this once with a GM that's willing to enforce it and see how it works before putting I to the rules. I can see it easily getting really out of control as GMs will have to decide what is offensive or not, and it's something I personally will never agree to do if I was a GM.

I always thought the general site rules should apply to Mafia, simple as that.

I will be mostly following Fox's proposed idea.

If someone is doing something you find offensive, contact me. I will work behind the scenes to try to mitigate extreme vitriol.

[Jamiet99uk]

If you guys think this is bad and full of drama/vitriol check out mafiascum games

I am banned from Mafiascum, and found it a very toxic community.

I second Fluminator's remarks; Mafiascum is way, way more abuse-laden thaour games normally are.

[Jamiet99uk]

*than our games