M1010 Mini-Mafia

[Foxcastle]

Bozo, I believe you talked some last game about how I am a busser, which is true. If I'm scum, why did my read of Jamiet get progressively harder rather than softer? He was my strongest townread before Rdrivera's claim.

[bozotheclown]

Incorrect - I caught what rdr said but didn't want to illicit needless attention by moving or asking more about it. I kept my vote with time to spare to make a change. He decided to explicitly comment after his hidden claim.

I knew what you were getting at when you said 'Are you caught up?' and I responded.

Do you mean this:

The case for damo - him getting votes and being a wagon.
I think that there is a good possibility that a lot of the posts today are theater. The key component of this is pairing involving yourself, bozo, rdr, Jamie, and Brain.

I'm not sure you know even now where his hidden claim was.

In any case, it is not very relevant anymore. The point here is that you and Fox voting together for Jamie means absolutely nothing about either of your alignments or whether or not you can be teammates.

This was what I saw that tipped me off:

You're right. It's hard to pinpoint the exact reasons, because it's more about tone. I will try to come up with something better.

I may still go back to brain, but I'm not so sure anymore as I was before, given how laid back Fox and worcej have been with their votes.

[bozotheclown]

Bozo, I believe you talked some last game about how I am a busser, which is true. If I'm scum, why did my read of Jamiet get progressively harder rather than softer? He was my strongest townread before Rdrivera's claim.

As I think I answered earlier, I do not think you bus all of your partners all of the time.

[bozotheclown]

Do you mean this:



I'm not sure you know even now where his hidden claim was.

In any case, it is not very relevant anymore. The point here is that you and Fox voting together for Jamie means absolutely nothing about either of your alignments or whether or not you can be teammates.

This was what I saw that tipped me off:

What did this tip you off about then?

[bozotheclown]

What did this tip you off about then?

[worcej]

As some of you don't get a soft claim, I hard claim Tracker with a guilty scan on Jamiet.

So please now vote Jamiet and lynch confirmed scum.

This post came AFTER my post to rdr. When I noticed his claim was when he talked to xorxes in this post:

You see Xorxes when I do an ISO on someone and change or update my read on them, as you have seen me do many times, you'll notice that I have the courtesy to quote or summarise the parts which stand out to me, page numbers and all.

What you are doing is saying "Oh, I have done an ISO on Jamie and I have completely reversed my opinion. Yes, he's scum, no doubt," leaving me nothing I can respond to.

Classic dirty tactics right there.

You're right. It's hard to pinpoint the exact reasons, because it's more about tone. I will try to come up with something better.

I may still go back to brain, but I'm not so sure anymore as I was before, given how laid back Fox and worcej have been with their votes.

Yes, Fox is really possible. Worcej I give the benefit of being the target of Brain fake claim.

Also, do you think I played right? I was expecting to have another night, but it was clear it won't happen.

Look at the fucking timestamps of the posts - Did you expect me, when I noticed it to go 'HEY RDR, LIKE ARE YOU SOFTING YOU'RE A PR IN THIS?! I TOTALLY HAVE BEEN SCUMMING YOU FOR BEING DIFFERENT AND OFF AND WANT TO VERIFY THIS IS THE CASE BRO!'

No - I kept quiet and didn't try to make it obvious I noticed that, in the hope he wouldn't need to do what he did - which was hard claim. We had an hour left of the day to move my vote, but unfortunately rdr thought the EOD time was different.

[xorxes]

@worcej, I read your case. I don't find any of that very convincing. You can't still be talking about that silly poll thing when I already told you several times he did that as scum as well, and he didn't do it that often anyway that he would be expected to do it every game.

I shared about half of those things you say were scummy, like suspecting bo.

Also, the bo-Fox connection was never going to be useful for lynching Fox after bo flipped town, so he could not have been setting Fox up by connecting them.

[worcej]

What did this tip you off about then?

Are you blind? Read rdr's post more carefully. He talks about 'having another night'. There was only one more PR we had that had a night action.

[worcej]

@worcej, I read your case. I don't find any of that very convincing. You can't still be talking about that silly poll thing when I already told you several times he did that as scum as well, and he didn't do it that often anyway that he would be expected to do it every game.

I shared about half of those things you say were scummy, like suspecting bo.

Also, the bo-Fox connection was never going to be useful for lynching Fox after bo flipped town, so he could not have been setting Fox up by connecting them.

Well I cannot do much about you not finding my reasons convincing. That's your own opinion versus my own.

Should I say sorry my case sucks? I guess endgame I'll be able to either validate my opinion or eat some crow.

[worcej]

"I don't like your case, not convincing" is at a core a part of our problem when town plays semi-vanilla games here - everyone is egotistical and full of themselves that only they know the truth and only their case is good enough.

Give me context for why it sucks. Let me actually engage more.

Yeah xorxes, some of the same reasons can apply to you, so? Does it all apply to you? No - thus it is the case for bozo, not the case for bozo AND xorxes.

[bozotheclown]

@worcej, can you remind me why you think bozo is scum?

I did a quick read to look for Jamie-bozo interactions, and there are few but most of them adversarial. Do you think this is fake, for example:

Scum can cooperatively answer questions as well. I do not know if I buy your read change of bo_sox 10 minutes before EOD.

Can you do an update on why you think he is scum? I'm not trying to set you up or anything, I'm not 100% sure about bozo, but I don't think there's anything terribly scummy about him either.

In an effort to explain it all more clearly utilizing my own posts...

First:

Thank u for worrying but I am a-okay as a person lol

@Sarah - "pressure" is a short term for the amount of people following up with you and asking repetitive questions. If that hurt you as a person, then get ready for me to ruin your soul if I start scumming you later.

@xorxes - Do you not think it's weird that bozo was focused on her in an effort to build a case on Bo? That was my takeaway from the exchange.

Maybe I was alone, but my takeaway from bozo on D1 as he picked at Sarah was making a connection to Bo due to the vote timing. He fleshed out more details as it went on, but it felt contrived and artificial at the time.

Second:

Sorry, it's not obvious to me. To clarify: you think bozo is different because he didn't do a survey, and scummy because he built his case on bo based on what Sarah did? What do you think about bozo voting for Fox?

In order:

1. Yes, the lack of a dumb survey is abnormal from bozo. Additionally, his focus on a new player is not normal to me - 19 of his 54 posts are directed at her by my count. I'd expect more of this from an established player because he could get someone to crack, but it just seems too contrived/forced. To then transition it to saying Bo needs to be flipped to confirm her is a weird stretch. As you may know, I hate the team pairs logic, especially this early in the game, and it is weak reasoning to push a lynch.
2. I think bozo is voting with little reason and is being opportunistic, which strikes me as being easy to do as scum. Scum don't want to stick their ass out so that it gets burned - they are cautious.

All of the above still apply, even with the D2 lynch of bo.

Third:

Because his pushes have made sense to me. I will reread him to make sure I'm not being bamboozled. Without using the word "cautious", why do you scumread him?

I don't think he's trying to hunt. He is focused on Bo.

But what happens if bozo is wrong? I see Fox as his next push because he is setting the stage up for that with his comments about kgray's reads. FWIW - I currently town-read Bo based on his responses to the pressure and divisiveness towards the scum reads he is getting. I've seen it before and thought he was scum and was wrong.

Still also true - he focused on Bo and is (finally) today living up to a push on Fox. He includes me too, but has been consistently looking at both of us for some time.

Fourth:

bo_sox was not dismissive D1, that is new to D2.

Yes. Did you not notice how my quoted posts were from D2?

At the time, I took this as him trying to shade my reads with the conversation with you. I took it as an attempt to discredit my points and he did it with a mistake.

Fifth:

Here is my list from top scum read to top town read:

worcej: too confident bo_sox was town, bad reasons for his votes on me

Foxcastle: I do not like his scum claim, refused to answer my questions D2

Jamie: read change at EOD to get BunnyGo lynched over bo_sox, could have been bussing Foxcastle

xorxes: I do not agree with his characterization of D1 EOD, I would not expect him to want BunnyGo to risk a shot

brainbomb: fake PR claim when at risk of getting lynched, could have been bussing Foxcastle

SK24: too little information to read, but being overly cautious could point to scum

rdrivera: looks OK, but could be lurking as scum

damo: reaction to bo_sox seems town

emc: his comments seem to be from a town perspective


Some scum teams that seem possible to me:

worcej/Foxcastle/Jamie
worcej/xorxes/brainbomb
worcej/xorxes/SK24
worcej/Jamie/brainbomb
xorxes/Jamie/brainbomb
Foxcastle/Jamie/brainbomb

So now I am scum because I was right about someone being town and am upset that your ego once again got in the way of trying to listen to me? I look forward to this bullshit.

Simply put, an OMGUS from someone I am not used to seeing one. Kinda a meh reason after the effort I felt he was beginning to plant.

Sixth:

This whole statement is bullshit. You N4 scanned him and knew on D5 he was town, so that was theater at the time when you decided to not lynch him.

I forgot I had scanned Foxcastle, but my point was I was scum and Foxcastle was implying I was town who tried to get him mislynched.

How did he forget who he scanned so quickly? This game is not that old. He knew Fox was town on D5 when he 'defended' him. This falls into one of those little lies to discredit Fox in this game to help push the scum narrative.

1. There was a connection between bo_sox and Sarah because of the vote timing, I was trying to figure out if it meant anything.

2. Calling my vote for Foxcastle cautious is nonsense.

3. Foxcastle claimed he was scum and insists he is too scummy to be scum, that has nothing to do with bo_sox.

4. You never explained why you town read of bo_sox was based only off of D2.

5. Scum reading me first does not protect you from me thinking your are scum.

6. Foxcastle inaccurately said I tried to get him mislynched that game, yet you ignore that.

[bozotheclown]

What did this tip you off about then?

Are you blind? Read rdr's post more carefully. He talks about 'having another night'. There was only one more PR we had that had a night action.

I thought you were denying this post tipped you off that rdrivera was the tracker.

[xorxes]

@worcej, I read your case. I don't find any of that very convincing. You can't still be talking about that silly poll thing when I already told you several times he did that as scum as well, and he didn't do it that often anyway that he would be expected to do it every game.

I shared about half of those things you say were scummy, like suspecting bo.

Also, the bo-Fox connection was never going to be useful for lynching Fox after bo flipped town, so he could not have been setting Fox up by connecting them.

Well I cannot do much about you not finding my reasons convincing. That's your own opinion versus my own.

Should I say sorry my case sucks? I guess endgame I'll be able to either validate my opinion or eat some crow.

What worries me more is that you still think the poll thing is something worth bringing up, for example. Either drop it if it was D1 nonsense (which is acceptable for a D1 half-joke first vote) or explain to me how that says anything about bozo's alignment.

[xorxes]

"I don't like your case, not convincing" is at a core a part of our problem when town plays semi-vanilla games here - everyone is egotistical and full of themselves that only they know the truth and only their case is good enough.

Give me context for why it sucks. Let me actually engage more.

Yeah xorxes, some of the same reasons can apply to you, so? Does it all apply to you? No - thus it is the case for bozo, not the case for bozo AND xorxes.

I was hoping for a case to convince xorxes that bozo is scum.

If you repeat something that you know I think is silly (poll), and you bring up something I did myself (scumread bo) as your points, then I'm not really convinced.

Also, knowing what you're basing your vote on lets me judge if you are coming from a towny POV or not.

[worcej]

1. There was a connection between bo_sox and Sarah because of the vote timing, I was trying to figure out if it meant anything.

2. Calling my vote for Foxcastle cautious is nonsense.

3. Foxcastle claimed he was scum and insists he is too scummy to be scum, that has nothing to do with bo_sox.

4. You never explained why you town read of bo_sox was based only off of D2.

5. Scum reading me first does not protect you from me thinking your are scum.

6. Foxcastle inaccurately said I tried to get him mislynched that game, yet you ignore that.

1. You tunneled the shit out of that and then developed a case for bo based off that.

2. Absolutely it was cautious.

3. Foxcastle jokingly claimed he was scum. BB has done the same, where is your brigade on him?

4. It wasn't based only off D2, so idk wth your point was at the time and what it is now.

5. No, but OMGUS is not something you typically do and it's interesting to see you justify it from then.

6. Difference here is it was a mis-statement versus you saying you forgot. There is a difference between the two I find rather important, considering you should've been caring about who you scanned to find your team last game versus him forgetting exactly what you did in a game where you laid low almost exclusively.

[worcej]

"I don't like your case, not convincing" is at a core a part of our problem when town plays semi-vanilla games here - everyone is egotistical and full of themselves that only they know the truth and only their case is good enough.

Give me context for why it sucks. Let me actually engage more.

Yeah xorxes, some of the same reasons can apply to you, so? Does it all apply to you? No - thus it is the case for bozo, not the case for bozo AND xorxes.

I was hoping for a case to convince xorxes that bozo is scum.

If you repeat something that you know I think is silly (poll), and you bring up something I did myself (scumread bo) as your points, then I'm not really convinced.

Also, knowing what you're basing your vote on lets me judge if you are coming from a towny POV or not.

You asked what my case for bozo is. The D1 is a portion of it, and I do think it's interesting that bozo didn't try some method to create a POE when he has been doing it a lot lately.

To let that erode the rest of my points is disheartening to say the least.

[brainbomb]

##Vote fox

[xorxes]

@worcej, who do you think is bozo's likeliest teammate?

[brainbomb]

no sense staying on vanity. doubt its fox but better him than me

[xorxes]

@worcej, I don't think anyone besides you is scumreading bozo at the moment. I am the closest with a very mild OMGUS fueled suspicion that won't really make me vote for him today.

Do you have a second choice?