M54: Not a Carrot Conspiracy

[xorxes]

Have you finished your reread yet?

No, have you?

[Fluminator]

Ok I think I'm done my reread.
Scum:
Xorx
Kdray
Final scum Balki/Jamiet
Longshot: Damo
Town: Bunny, Bozo

I'm taking a long break now. I spent way too much time on this today lol.

Your complete detached attitude to everything going on hasn't swayed me differently yet.

[kgray]

Kgray is continuing to just ask logic questions.

This is a straight-up lie, Bunny. It's getting really hard to believe you're making these mistakes on accident.

[kgray]

For the record, I disagree strongly on kgray. She's continued her "ask questions that seem probing" methodology. It's easy to hide as scum like that. It's like the pretentious college student who always plays "devils advocate" and thinks their a genius because of it. She's not solving, she's asking devils advocate questions to seem like she's solving. Reread her with that light...

If you are town, you really need to stop. I'm asking questions because I'm unsure. I want to understand why people are saying/doing the things they're saying/doing. I'm not playing devils advocate, I'm trying to look at things from multiple perspectives. You know, because I'm trying to figure things out. And I've given plenty of opinions.

You've said several times this game you were going to try to avoid tunneling something, and wouldn't get stuck on one thing. Well, you're stuck now, and you're wrong. I don't understand why the thing you originally townread me for is now causing you to scumread me, but you have got to move on if you're town and you want to win this game.

[kgray]

@Xorx, @Kgray
lynch vs. no lynch is 3 vs. 3
What's your opinions

I honestly don't know. I can see both arguments and I don't know which I agree with.

[kgray]

I don't understand your question.

Sorry, I will try to explain.

My point is, it makes sense to lynch on the emc wagon. Certain people on that wagon look very scummy because of the way they voted to end up there. That is my opinion, at least. And it seems to also be the opinion of Flum, Balki and xorxes, who are apparently very good at this game.

I'm willing to accept the argument that one of them might be scum. But you think the other two, who are likely town (in your words) and who are also good at this game, are wrong about the scumminess of the D3 emc wagon?

If you think I'm the scummiest of the emc wagon, then please do keep voting for me. But I think your argument is simultaneously putting Balk/Flum/xorxes on a pedestal and also ignoring their reads. It doesn't make sense to me.

This post (and the ones in our conversation leading up to it) seem weird. Like she's trying to deny that one of these three are scum. Willfully ignoring that scum should kill "good town" while simultaneously saying "so they must be good town and don't ignore them". Like she isn't thinking what town should be concluding from scum NKs.

Are you kidding me with this, Bunny? Are you even reading what I'm saying or are you just making shit up?

I said I didn't think it was likely that all three were scum, not that one of them is scum. My point was that if all three were pushing the same narrative, and they are not all scum, and they are good players, then it is a narrative that is worth considering.

The fact that reading into night kills is wifom had been discussed at length. We can't conclude anything definite from NKs because we have no idea if scum did something because they of some reason or if they just wanted us to think it was for that reason. You already know this, and you are ignoring it so that you can push your BS case on me.

[kgray]

I don't understand this argument that being logical is scummy. I get that it might not be the best way to find scum, as I've been wrong about all my top scumreads so far. But I'm working with what I have. I've never played this game before and I don't know you people. So I can't really use meta for my reads and I don't know how many levels deep the mind games typically go. What am I supposed to do, just randomly put names down in a town/scum list? Vote for who I like least as a person? Not give any reasons for my reads at all?

[BunnyGo]

For the record, I disagree strongly on kgray. She's continued her "ask questions that seem probing" methodology. It's easy to hide as scum like that. It's like the pretentious college student who always plays "devils advocate" and thinks their a genius because of it. She's not solving, she's asking devils advocate questions to seem like she's solving. Reread her with that light...

If you are town, you really need to stop. I'm asking questions because I'm unsure. I want to understand why people are saying/doing the things they're saying/doing. I'm not playing devils advocate, I'm trying to look at things from multiple perspectives. You know, because I'm trying to figure things out. And I've given plenty of opinions.

You've said several times this game you were going to try to avoid tunneling something, and wouldn't get stuck on one thing. Well, you're stuck now, and you're wrong. I don't understand why the thing you originally townread me for is now causing you to scumread me, but you have got to move on if you're town and you want to win this game.

This is a fair point. But your previous post about it being a lie is not true. Any reread of your Day 6 shows that the only "feel" you've given is that I creep you out but you don't know why.

Otherwise, you just ask questions. Parroting what people are posting, and asking logical probing questions. But this is EASY to fake. It's the default of any obnoxious college freshman when they didn't do the reading for class.

I'll stop tunneling and look for someone else. I've made my point. But since EVERYONE else is doing it. I'll put a place holder on ##VOTE KGRAY. LET ME BE CLEAR I will be moving back to no-lynch if there's any hope that will win.

[kgray]

Two things I've noticed about Bunny and Sulit that I don't think have been brought up yet:

• Bunny's first vote was for sulit, apparently because sulit checked in and then returned to lurking. I can see a reason for town-Bunny to vote sulit to pressure her to contribute. But, since Bunny didn't do the same thing with any of the other lurkers, this seems like an easy way to distance from a teammate. He also kept his vote on her once she came back, even making sure to re-vote for sulit after accidentally voting to no-lynch. So it can't have been only to encourage her to show up.

• Bunny provided an ISO for brain here, which I think was to look into why brain was the night kill. The thing that really stands out to me about this is that Bunny doesn't at all mention the brain vs Jamie conflict that happened during N1. Brain scumread suilt and went after Jamie pretty hard for listing sulit as a scumread when she had posted very little. It was the majority of brain's posting for the last half of the night, and Bunny was even around during the beginning of the argument. In Bunny's tldr in the next post, he inaccurately calls Jamie one of brain's strong townreads. This is a pretty significant error and I don't see how it's possible that Bunny honestly missed that entire part of brain's ISO. It's the subject of about 20 out of brain's last 25 posts. I think Bunny/Jamie could be partners here, but at the very least Bunny seems to be deflecting away from brain's scumread of sulit.

[BunnyGo]

OK, as kgray says I'm tunneling and damo says that "bozo is obv town and everyone thinks so" let me examine that:

He did the Bozo's bozo thing of tunneling on me D1 for reading comprehension differences.

Ran his usual survey.

Posted this:

My next 5 most likely town are brainbomb, bo_sox, damo, Fluminator, and Foxcastle. As a result, my guess is that the 4 scum are in the following:

BunnyGo, Chaqa, emc, Pjandy, sulit, Temasek, Vecna, worcej

At this point it's looking possible there are more scum in his "5 most likely town" (Flum and damo) than in his "4 scum in the following" list (from MPOV as damo says it's just sulit)

On D2 after saying he found the NK strange and that maybe they found a crumb that

To do my "who is on the wagon" analysis again (but bozo's original tally is no longer so relevant). My own personal take is that:

Fox I don't have a good read on, but jamie and I are town
xorxes I don't have a good read on, but Balki is town
worcej is town, and rdr is probably town.

So the wagon's aren't obviously better or worse than the others.

Should we do Bozo's experiment again to get updated data?

My 5 townreads:

kgray, worcej, Balki, Jamie, bozo

This reminds me that most of the lurkers did not participate in the D1 survey either.

My current top 5 town reads are: Balki, kgray, Jamie, xorxes, Fluminator.

Notice they are ALL still alive? That's incredible.

Slams the lurkers a lot.

His vote on Vecna and subsequent chastising of it as "only a scum play" makes sense. It seems towny points...

He votes EMC, but switches to Bob when it seems a race between Bob and Chaq (could have tied it at 5, but states that Chaq is his last choice of the 3). Oddly doesn't switch back when EMC becomes viable again. Calls EMC out for his Xorxes vote with 6 minutes to go. But doesn't switch back to EMC. This would be odd bussing, as he could easily justify switching. More towny points for bozo.

Then again, the next night he latches on to me for some similar movement. But mine was much more justified than his "not Chaq". Still, I think it's towny points.

He continues to push me very hard in D4. He eventually posts:

I am not sure what to make of Balki vs. Foxcastle, if they are both scum, they are doing some great bussing. For now I will give a slight town preference to Balki.

Town
Jamie
Fluminator
Chaqa
xorxes
kgray
Balki
Foxcastle
rdrivera
damo
emc
BunnyGo
Scum

Why did he move back to EMC at the EOD? It wasn't needed to decide. Did he want to hide the fact from people who just do EOD analysis that he was on Damo all day?

Then after scumreading me for the same reasons posts:

@bozo who iyo is the most likely busser

BunnyGo, for the timing of his vote on Bob, and for his rapid read changes of both Bob and Chaqa after he switched his vote from Chaqa to Bob. I had a detailed post about it at the beginning of N3.

BunnyGo voting for kgray today makes me wonder if he could be bussing her as well, it could provide some distancing when neither seems at much risk of getting lynched.

The thing that stands out to me as most suspicious about kgray is here sudden scum reads of emc and Chaqa D3 after they became wagons. Overall kgray comes across as town trying to push people for information, but she may just be very good at sounding town like.

##VOTE kgray

[BunnyGo]

OK, the tldr; of the ballad of bozo:

Overall I think he's towny. There are a number of scummy places. But I can find those anywhere. I will tip my hat if I'm wrong. But:

1) Bussing BobMcSulit? Not really. He could have easily moved back to EMC at any point and justified it. Didn't have to move to Bob when he did either...

2) The scummiest thing that stands out is that his 5 townreads on day 2 are all still alive. If Bozo *is* scum, then I bet at least 1 if not 2 of those are too. If we manage to find say kgray and Balki/Flum/Xorxes as scum, then I want us to take a REAL close look at Bozo.

otherwise he seems towny.

[kgray]

@Bunny, I'm rereading xorxes now. Before I post my thoughts, can you tell me your current opinion of him?

[BunnyGo]

Two things I've noticed about Bunny and Sulit that I don't think have been brought up yet:

• Bunny's first vote was for sulit, apparently because sulit checked in and then returned to lurking. I can see a reason for town-Bunny to vote sulit to pressure her to contribute. But, since Bunny didn't do the same thing with any of the other lurkers, this seems like an easy way to distance from a teammate. He also kept his vote on her once she came back, even making sure to re-vote for sulit after accidentally voting to no-lynch. So it can't have been only to encourage her to show up.

• Bunny provided an ISO for brain here, which I think was to look into why brain was the night kill. The thing that really stands out to me about this is that Bunny doesn't at all mention the brain vs Jamie conflict that happened during N1. Brain scumread suilt and went after Jamie pretty hard for listing sulit as a scumread when she had posted very little. It was the majority of brain's posting for the last half of the night, and Bunny was even around during the beginning of the argument. In Bunny's tldr in the next post, he inaccurately calls Jamie one of brain's strong townreads. This is a pretty significant error and I don't see how it's possible that Bunny honestly missed that entire part of brain's ISO. It's the subject of about 20 out of brain's last 25 posts. I think Bunny/Jamie could be partners here, but at the very least Bunny seems to be deflecting away from brain's scumread of sulit.

Yes, this is a research post. Well done! Except you're misrepresenting my summary of brain entirely. And doing it well by not quoting it. Here it is:

OK, I had some time now to ISO brain. He makes 2 early posts, either of which could be crumbs. I'm not able to understand what Iron Golems have to do with anything (minecraft aficionados here?) but Osmosis Jones is a police officer white blood cell.

I arrive on a chariot drawn by iron golems

I will watch osmosis jones now to help me find the contagion

Early vote on vecna, and town read on worcej.

Praises Balki. Calls kgray a "hornet" (I don't know the term, but said he liked her)

Town so far
Balki
worcej
kgray
jamiet

Claims "xorxes feels a little off." that he "didn't feel reserved"

States he's assuming Chaq is scum. and "bo is town, that's my take"

Scumreads
Vecna
Jamie
Chaqa

that is all so far

His next two posts states he'd like to lynch the lurkers, and that the following people feel towny:

bunny, emc, balki, bo, worcej, new girl, bozo, rivera

Switches vote to temasek. But says again vecna is making him uncomfortable.

"EMC looks town compared to last game"

The he has a long post on lots of topics including: prodding worc and flum about vecna. Stating that Fox has made him second guess his town read on me (BUNNY!), jamie is town, chaq is unimpressive, temasek will likely be his final vote. He's still scum reading vecna.

At night he said:

I'd be shocked worcej was scum, the wagon was scummier.
Start lynching low posters: vecna, pj, sulit, bo.

then made strange comment about vig shooting vecna.

Then threw bozo into his list of candidates to lynch, and removed bo. Then later put bo back in...Said rivera was a distant 5th. He really goes all over here.

OK, a tldr; for Damo and all coming up next!

He really does go all over if you put in n2 and brainbomb posts in the bot. I admit, I missed the jamie exchange as it was in the 2nd half of that page. But I'm interested in how you get from brainbomb going after jamie and saying he's not clear town to not looking at jamie...pot? kettle?

[BunnyGo]

@Bunny, I'm rereading xorxes now. Before I post my thoughts, can you tell me your current opinion of him?

Xorxes? I haven't reread him solo (only with you as teammate, and he doesn't look good if you're scum). I was just wondering if his current spat with Flum is T v T or not. Of the Balki/Xorxes/Flum triple my unread gut says if 1 of them is scum it is Balki or Xorxes.

The vecna thing was weird, I was mad at him and Flum for hammering. Somehow bozo came away cleaner there in my mind.

His start of the Bob wagon with rdr asking for help because the GMs would sub out a scum but not a town was lazy!xorxes. He's been lazy!xorxes all game, which is weird for him.

But for more in depth, I'd have to reread. Right now it is: if you are scum, he goes to the top of my list. If you are town, then I'd want to check his pairings with other EMC wagon (D3) voters, but he's a good candidate. Above Bozo for bussing, probably above Flum (haven't reread), and on par with Balki (haven't reread).

[kgray]

Yes, this is a research post. Well done! Except you're misrepresenting my summary of brain entirely. And doing it well by not quoting it. Here it is:

First of all, I linked to your post. So you didn't need to quote it here.

And second, I'm getting really sick of your patronizing attitude. You've said several times that town needs to stay positive and not be disparaging, and you've said that you agree that this website has a lack of mutual respect. So maybe just lay off with the condescension, please.

He really does go all over if you put in n2 and brainbomb posts in the bot. I admit, I missed the jamie exchange as it was in the 2nd half of that page. But I'm interested in how you get from brainbomb going after jamie and saying he's not clear town to not looking at jamie...pot? kettle?

I think its shocking that if you're looking at his ISO, you missed roughly 80% of the last 25 posts he made. It's the very end of what he had posted, and he had just been killed. I think his last reads would be pretty important, especially since you seemed to be doing that ISO to try to figure out why scum killed him.

And I did say I thought brain's pressure on Jamie could imply that Jamie was scum. I said it here - please follow that link. I also said in my above post, that I thought it could imply that you and Jamie were scum partners.

It is really, really hard for me to see an honest motivation in your push when you ignore these kinds of things. You seem to be picking and choosing what you understand, or at least what you respond to. It reeks of scum forcing a narrative.

[BunnyGo]

@kgray. You're right. I've been finding a lot of your posts annoying, and deflecting, and I've been responding badly. I'm off to sleep for 5 hours, back tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing things with new light.

##vote no-lynch

[kgray]

@kgray. You're right. I've been finding a lot of your posts annoying, and deflecting, and I've been responding badly. I'm off to sleep for 5 hours, back tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing things with new light.

##vote no-lynch

I'm sorry you find me annoying - not much I can do about that. But if you think I'm deflecting, please point out where that's happening. I've attempted to answer every question that I've been asked. If I've missed something, let me know.

[BunnyGo]

@kgray. You're right. I've been finding a lot of your posts annoying, and deflecting, and I've been responding badly. I'm off to sleep for 5 hours, back tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing things with new light.

##vote no-lynch

I'm sorry you find me annoying - not much I can do about that. But if you think I'm deflecting, please point out where that's happening. I've attempted to answer every question that I've been asked. If I've missed something, let me know.

You deflect the whole conversation by asking "logical" questions that sounds like you're searching. They sound like you're helping. They sound useful. The same way an annoying debater just plays devils advocate ad nauseum to sound smart.

If this hasn't sunk in yet, if you don't understand the concept, I don't know how else I can explain it. At least not without sleep.

[kgray]

@kgray. You're right. I've been finding a lot of your posts annoying, and deflecting, and I've been responding badly. I'm off to sleep for 5 hours, back tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing things with new light.

##vote no-lynch

I'm sorry you find me annoying - not much I can do about that. But if you think I'm deflecting, please point out where that's happening. I've attempted to answer every question that I've been asked. If I've missed something, let me know.

You deflect the whole conversation by asking "logical" questions that sounds like you're searching. They sound like you're helping. They sound useful. The same way an annoying debater just plays devils advocate ad nauseum to sound smart.

If this hasn't sunk in yet, if you don't understand the concept, I don't know how else I can explain it. At least not without sleep.

Jesus, Bunny. I honestly don't know what you want from me. What conversations am I deflecting? I am literally searching. I'm trying to be helpful and useful. I'm not trying to sound smart.

Do you get why I'm frustrated by this? Consider for a moment that I'm town. I have never played this game before. I'm confused. I'm suspicious of everyone. I don't have any idea about what is "typical scum" behavior, besides my instincts and what people are saying here - and since I have no idea if those comments are coming from town or scum, I don't know what to trust. And yet my job is to figure out who is scum. Why would I not ask questions? Why in the hell would I not try to be logical??

And if you're just going to say "that's what annoying scum would be doing" then don't bother answering. I'm over you ignoring half of what I say and misconstruing the rest.

[bozotheclown]

I think the chance that BunnyGo was bussing kgray D5 has gone down.