M54: Not a Carrot Conspiracy

[Fluminator]

Flum has the oddest of game logics, there's been hella lots of other lurkers like me, I think xorx is in his classic scum meta, the fucking hammer that sprung out of nowhere - which I think started with a dumbass town having fun poking vecna and then scum jumped at opportunity to lynch and not have to waste NK on him.

There were other lurkers.
We lynched one, bullied Chaqa and Bo and Bob into posting.
You and andy are the last ones left.

But welcome to the game.

Could you expand on your thoughts on the Vecna hammer?

[e.m.c^42]

Think it was bozo who asked this, but reason for staying on Flum day 1 was due to thoughts process like this:

Out of Tem and worce, they both seem as towny as you can state from a day 1 experience, but out of Tem and worce would prefer for Tem to die over worce due to expected activity and contribution levels. However don't feel strongly enough about either to bother voting for either one, should be ok to let it play out. Had it been risk of tie would have voted Tem.

[worcej]

@kgray,

I'd like you to push yourself to put some current reads in the thread. I just read your ISO. I see a lot of questioning, but not much in the way of sticking your neck out.

You were an early voter on Tem. And I thought your reasoning sounded plausible. But your play overall is coming across to me as timid and non-confrontational.

@Town, don't give kgray a free pass. I don't see much of a vector behind her questions. I feel like she's swimming in place a bit, which could suggest that she doesn't have a puzzle to solve.

Sure, I'll do some more rereading and write up a more detailed list with reasons tomorrow. For now, here's what I've got:

Towny:
Jamie
damo
bozo

Town-ish:
worcej
xorxes
Flum
Rdrivera
Balki

Scum-ish:
pjandy
BunnyGo
Foxcastle
bobmcbob

Scummy:
Chaqa
emc

I see this list and it doesn't make me feel like I understand more about you. Why are these people put into each slot?

[Jamiet99uk]

##vote xorx in case I drop for some reason

Out of everyone you could have voted for, why Xorxes?

[worcej]

Hey, don't blame me for lurking! I only accepted because everyone else refused. On another note, I should have a bit more time on my hands by Tuesday, so I should be able to start properly contributing by then. Still got to get around to looking at EoD though... If I haven't got that done in an hour, feel free to all vote me, I probably need the pressure. NK wasn't too bad for us, although bo seems to be a decent player.

Not to be a dick, but from a players perspective I'd rather have a mod-kill than warm body who isn't contributing. There is too much doubt about your slot and if you are town, you'll end up costing us the game at some point because you are not participating.

[Foxcastle]

Are you saying that if I check all your games since Mafia 1 I won't find any in which you have been townread?

Everyone gets town read sometimes, but I think I get scum read more than anyone else.

rivera used to say that all the time too, but he grew out of it.

I used to think that when rdrivera was being widely scumread, that meant he was town; and when he was being widely townread, he was scum. It matched up pretty well for several games. So since he's not being widely scumread this game, that must mean he's not town!

[Balki Bartokomous]

Balki is trolling somewhere but it's taken seriously, and it's probably wifom games involving clueless mafia. I can't really say anything about activity being AI when I've been gone and it'll be taken as hypocrisy, but rivera is in his classic, classic scum activity levels.

I’m not sure what this means. What does it mean?

Rivera is rather likely to be scum from activity alone, as it is established tell like xorx. However it comes off as hypocritical when pointed out from me. I think there is tinfoil chance that you are actual patient zero ballsy enough to troll, but you're definitely playing someone in thread, just not sure who without reread.

Who is the "clueless mafia" referring to in that sentence?

Did you say that because you know that I am town?

[Fluminator]

Have I missed something on Xorx or is the case essentially "D3 and he hasn't been fearkilled yet"

[BunnyGo]

It has now been 44 hours since EMC posted this. All four dead players still have more posts than he does. (This is not for here or now, but: if he's mod-killed or lynched having only posted twice in three and a half days, I hope the GMs will recommend that he not be allowed to play the next game he tries to sign up for.)

I am good with his lynch, but am not going to vote him right now because I want to see some competition among wagons, so I'll stay on chaqa. Time to start moving votes, people.

Chaqa, worcej, Balki, Bunny: who are your second choices?

Xorxes and rdrivera: who would get your vote among xorxes, Pjandy, me, and Balki?

Between EMC and Chaq it’s an interesting choice. Chaq is scummy. EMC is gone. If EMC is getting policy lynched either way, I’d rather vote Chaq. If EMC shows up, he may start playing and being useful and town, I’d rather vote Chaq. The question is whether I want a third option.

Are you saying EMC and Chaqa are you second scumreads after Balki?

No. I’m saying if you insist on my 2nd choice to be a wagon that has other people, those are the leading ones. I think Drunk Bunny (TM) got carried away voting on Balki just on a feeling.

I think Flum is scummy, but Drunk Bunny (TM) has overruled me and I’m not willing to go against that feeling today. His gut is often correct.

With EMC back, I don’t want to vote there.

Chaq is hard, because when he’s town he’s often less than useless. But just because if that I don’t want to be bad for town and get rid of him. That doesn’t help. But he had been weird and scummy.

Fox you still made no impression on me. And none on Drunk Bunny (TM). Why is that? I read your posts. I see you. But I never remember you. It’s like you have a Somebody Else’s Problem field around you. It’s disconcerting.

Kgray still seems like an eager and useful noob town.

Damo is starting to bother me. Why did he try to weirdly save Chaq?

I could vote for Chaq. I could vote for Damo. I could vote for Balki.

[worcej]

Is EMC just terrified of posting as scum? Did he have a recent bad experience as mafia and now scared to post?

As some have already said, He did get lynched D1 last game as scum.

My take is it would be incredibly stupid to shrivel up and non-participate if he was scum again.

[worcej]

The lynch of EMC in the last game was not just a policy lynch. There was a shift in his play and he was correctly scumread for it. If he is town now, that experience should give him more confidence, since we have now seen both sides of him.

And yet...

Meh. You were scumreading him, Bob was scumreading him for lack of participation rather than anything specific or a change in play (had Bob even encountered EMC before?), Kit and I were bussing him, and Vecna voted to seal the deal without an explanation. The other votes I recall during that day were policy lynch votes. So I disagree that there there was a consensus beyond yourself that he was actually scum. The point being that EMC is pretty consistent at playing to his (shitty) baseline, and I don't think that his lynch in the last game would give town-EMC any reason to change how he played.

A good assessment right here from Fox that is about the same as my GM perspective for that game.

[e.m.c^42]

Flum has the oddest of game logics, there's been hella lots of other lurkers like me, I think xorx is in his classic scum meta, the fucking hammer that sprung out of nowhere - which I think started with a dumbass town having fun poking vecna and then scum jumped at opportunity to lynch and not have to waste NK on him.

There were other lurkers.
We lynched one, bullied Chaqa and Bo and Bob into posting.
You and andy are the last ones left.

But welcome to the game.

Could you expand on your thoughts on the Vecna hammer?

That it's scummy. Who the hell hammers on fucking day 2? Day Twooo, my god. Vecna was definitely scummy, yes, as up until now he's pretty much exclusively only played wifom games as scum (tell, like with myself).

But to hammer? No. There were plenty of people who hadn't weighed in yet, not mentioning the category of players like bo/me who tend to come in during last 6 hours of game. Had I posted it probably would've been something along lines of "vec prolly scum, but good chance he is PR here as he isn't pushing wifom angle as hard - but this would be just implied all over the place since I'd be trying to not out him if it was the case."

And the fact that no-one questioned why there was such consensus at such an early point in the game as well, and no counterwagon at all. I get why Vecna suicided lol.

The fact that no-one unhammered when it was at 7 or 8 indicates that certainly there was scum there.

I think endvotes started as faulty/outdated town logic regarding usage of hammers (who was it you?), and games mech created opportunities.

[e.m.c^42]

Have I missed something on Xorx or is the case essentially "D3 and he hasn't been fearkilled yet"

Eh, prolly something like "it's his contributions and activity level compared to usual, not to mention his questionable vecna thoughts."

[brainbomb]

Janet stared in disbelief at the riots. A man flung himself over the barbed wire fence and tried to run toward the facility. She looked away as Canadian soldiers gunned him down on the grass. Angry protestors flipped a car over as it caught fire.

"Please just get me out of here. Im out of ideas" she said as she put her head in her hands."

The dog whimpered from the backseat.

Freedom put the truck into reverse. "I have an idea lady. Lets go to Tim Hortons".

Janet looked up. "Coffee? youre taking me to get coffee? at a time like this.."

Day 3 Vote Tally
e.m.c^42 (4) Fluminator Jamiet99uk bozotheclown damo666
Chaqa (3) Foxcastle kgray BobMcBob
xorxes (2) Chaqa e.m.c^42
BobMcBob (2) xorxes rdrivera2005
Pjandy (1) worcej
Foxcastle (1) Balki Bartokomous
Balki Bartokomous (1) BunnyGo

End-votes (0/15):

Highest end-vote count was 1 for e.m.c^42 at 18:31 before deadline.

Non-votes
Pjandy

Emc is scheduled to be lynched
Pjandy is scheduled to be modkilled

2 hours remain

[Chaqa]

Sorry, no excuses for lurking but I'll be more active from now on.

It has now been 44 hours since EMC posted this. All four dead players still have more posts than he does. (This is not for here or now, but: if he's mod-killed or lynched having only posted twice in three and a half days, I hope the GMs will recommend that he not be allowed to play the next game he tries to sign up for.)

I am good with his lynch, but am not going to vote him right now because I want to see some competition among wagons, so I'll stay on chaqa. Time to start moving votes, people.

Chaqa, worcej, Balki, Bunny: who are your second choices?

Xorxes and rdrivera: who would get your vote among xorxes, Pjandy, me, and Balki?

Between EMC and Chaq it’s an interesting choice. Chaq is scummy. EMC is gone. If EMC is getting policy lynched either way, I’d rather vote Chaq. If EMC shows up, he may start playing and being useful and town, I’d rather vote Chaq. The question is whether I want a third option.

So the short version is you're making excuses for piling on lynching me. Got it.

[Fluminator]

Ok you seem suitably clueless enough.

##vote Chaqa

[Jamiet99uk]

Have I missed something on Xorx or is the case essentially "D3 and he hasn't been fearkilled yet"

EMC says Xorxes is displaying "his classic scum meta".

I am honestly not sure what exactly he means.

[BunnyGo]

It has now been 44 hours since EMC posted this. All four dead players still have more posts than he does. (This is not for here or now, but: if he's mod-killed or lynched having only posted twice in three and a half days, I hope the GMs will recommend that he not be allowed to play the next game he tries to sign up for.)

I am good with his lynch, but am not going to vote him right now because I want to see some competition among wagons, so I'll stay on chaqa. Time to start moving votes, people.

Chaqa, worcej, Balki, Bunny: who are your second choices?

Xorxes and rdrivera: who would get your vote among xorxes, Pjandy, me, and Balki?

Between EMC and Chaq it’s an interesting choice. Chaq is scummy. EMC is gone. If EMC is getting policy lynched either way, I’d rather vote Chaq. If EMC shows up, he may start playing and being useful and town, I’d rather vote Chaq. The question is whether I want a third option.

So the short version is you're making excuses for piling on lynching me. Got it.

Have I voted you yet? Your actions and statements have been less than useful. What are your thoughts. Actual ideas and statements. Not gut reactions “Chaq feels he has to *DO* something”. But a considered real opinion? I want to hear it. You’re not stupid, but you do stupid things when you feel you have to shake things up.

[Foxcastle]

Between EMC and Chaq it’s an interesting choice. Chaq is scummy. EMC is gone. If EMC is getting policy lynched either way, I’d rather vote Chaq. If EMC shows up, he may start playing and being useful and town, I’d rather vote Chaq. The question is whether I want a third option.

Are you saying EMC and Chaqa are you second scumreads after Balki?

No. I’m saying if you insist on my 2nd choice to be a wagon that has other people, those are the leading ones. I think Drunk Bunny (TM) got carried away voting on Balki just on a feeling.

I think Flum is scummy, but Drunk Bunny (TM) has overruled me and I’m not willing to go against that feeling today. His gut is often correct.

With EMC back, I don’t want to vote there.

Chaq is hard, because when he’s town he’s often less than useless. But just because if that I don’t want to be bad for town and get rid of him. That doesn’t help. But he had been weird and scummy.

<paragraph excerpted below for reply>

Kgray still seems like an eager and useful noob town.

Damo is starting to bother me. Why did he try to weirdly save Chaq?

I could vote for Chaq. I could vote for Damo. I could vote for Balki.

I was asking for your second choice from the whole pool, assuming that your vote on Balki indicated he was at the time your first choice. Thank you for your laying out some additional thoughts.

Fox you still made no impression on me. And none on Drunk Bunny (TM). Why is that? I read your posts. I see you. But I never remember you. It’s like you have a Somebody Else’s Problem field around you. It’s disconcerting.

I am not sure how you think I should answer this, not living inside your head. I often get scumread for not being a big presence or not making an impression on people. I have been lynched for this in the past as scum when I was trying to be active and townie, and as town when I have just been playing as usual.

For what it's worth, I have this same issue with Damo pretty consistently.

[Jamiet99uk]

Doing a re-read of Damo throws up some interesting points:

1. Damo joined at p.23 and by p.26 he had townreads on Balki, Xorxes, Rdrivera. He voted for Fluminator. On p.27 he told me he wasn't sure if Xorxes and Rdrivera were PRs but he was sure Balki was VT. I don't know if Damo's discussion of potential town PRs was scummy or not... But it's certainly not great play.

2. During D1 he is *really* keen to get people off Chaqa, and repeatedly challenges Chaqa voters. He voted Flum during D1 for no other reason than because Flum was voting for Chaqa. Yet During N1 he speculated that Chaqa was scum helping mislynch Temasek, and since then he has scumread Chaqa pretty hard.

3. His attempt to get a last moment D1 flashwagon on Worcej is.... interesting, given that both Temasek and Worcej were his "top suspects", and how he later claimed he was "setting a trap" rather than trying to lynch Worcej.