M54: Not a Carrot Conspiracy

[Foxcastle]

I think there was a reasonable amount of worry (or at least I was reasonably worried) about an accidental tie.

Accidental ties are a risk at EOD with a time limit, when votes are flying every which way, but with a hammer there's not much risk. Whoever casts the final hammering vote has the resposibility of knowing exactly what they are hammering.

It's nice to say that that person has that responsibility, but there's no guarantee you won't get a crosspost or, you know, a self-vote. Even less of a guarantee that some player won't just waltz in doing whatever.

EBWOP

[bozotheclown]

Well, when emc made his vote, the two leading lynch candidates were both town. Tem had 6, brain had 3. So, it would have been pretty easy for emc to "make his vote count" at that stage. No partners in danger, a couple of townies on the noose...why cast a vote for Flum in that scenario?

I could see it if emc and Flum are scum together. An easy chance to distance. That's possible. But if Flum is town, it seems like an unusual vote for scum to make.

Thoughts?

emc voted more than one hour before EOD, but he was online at EOD as demonstrated by his last post occurring 2 minutes before EOD, yet he did not weigh in on Temasek vs. worcej.

You seem to have a grasp of emc’s meta, as indicated by your thoughts on him bussing. Do you think that emc would be just as hesitant to vote for a leading town candidate as he would be his own teammate? Why or why not?

emc has claimed he waits until the last minute to vote, especially on D1, to maximize his information before voting, but he usually places a meaningful vote at EOD. I believe his being online at EOD and leaving his vote on a one vote wagon was unusual for him, which is why I asked the question.

[xorxes]

I think there was a reasonable amount of worry (or at least I was reasonably worried) about an accidental tie.

Accidental ties are a risk at EOD with a time limit, when votes are flying every which way, but with a hammer there's not much risk. Whoever casts the final hammering vote has the resposibility of knowing exactly what they are hammering.

It's nice to say that that person has that responsibility, but there's no guarantee you won't get a crosspost or, you know, a self-vote. Even less of a guarantee that some player will just waltz in doing whatever.

Well, I still don't think one should worry about ties other than very close to the deadline. Ties should actually be welcome because they provide opportunities for information.

[bozotheclown]

• Of the 8 people that voted for Vecna, only 5 of them were voting to hammer. Of the 9 people that voted to hammer, 6 of them were voting for Vecna. All six within that overlapping group (damo666, Fluminator, Foxcastle, Chaqa, xorxes, Vecna) were active toward the end of the day. Of those six, Fluminator and Chaqa were quite hesitant to end it. Xorxes was ready to give Vecna a pass for the day before bouncing back to him. Damo and Fox, what were you thinking? Were you all in on hammering Vecna?

May make sense to also ask why Balki, kgray, and bozo, who voted for Vecna, didn't hammer.

I think this should be obvious if you read D2. Balki and kgray were the oldest votes for Vecna and they were not online when the day ended. Vecna was not my first choice to lynch, but after he self voted and voted to hammer himself, I was OK hammering him, but Chaqa beat me to it.

[bozotheclown]

How on Earth do you guys lynched Vecna? And who changed the rule on hammering? It was forever majority voting both on the biggest wagon and to hammer. Even the bot count this way.

Now I will read the last 20 pages.

Vecna hammered himself and you wonder how we could lynch him?

[Foxcastle]

Accidental ties are a risk at EOD with a time limit, when votes are flying every which way, but with a hammer there's not much risk. Whoever casts the final hammering vote has the resposibility of knowing exactly what they are hammering.

It's nice to say that that person has that responsibility, but there's no guarantee you won't get a crosspost or, you know, a self-vote. Even less of a guarantee that some player will just waltz in doing whatever.

Well, I still don't think one should worry about ties other than very close to the deadline. Ties should actually be welcome because they provide opportunities for information.

What. That’s never been the accepted consensus since I’ve been here, and I don’t believe I’ve ever heard you express that. (I’m not opposed to it, and maybe we can even try Day One No Lynch.)

[bozotheclown]

How on Earth do you guys lynched Vecna? And who changed the rule on hammering? It was forever majority voting both on the biggest wagon and to hammer. Even the bot count this way.

Now I will read the last 20 pages.

Well this is a silly post.

Why it's silly? When I voted end I didn't knew the hammer mechanic have changed and I never expected it will really happen. And I also said that lynching Vecna wasn't a good option.

You, as any town with half a brain retracted on your end vote. I really doubt we don't have at least 2 scum between the late end voters (Xorxes, Fox, Flum and Chaqa). And Vecna didn't suicide, anyone pushing this is scum, there were two end votes after him that clearly know what they are doing.

Yes, they knew what they were doing, they were hammering someone who had hammered himself.

[xorxes]

It's nice to say that that person has that responsibility, but there's no guarantee you won't get a crosspost or, you know, a self-vote. Even less of a guarantee that some player will just waltz in doing whatever.

Well, I still don't think one should worry about ties other than very close to the deadline. Ties should actually be welcome because they provide opportunities for information.

What. That’s never been the accepted consensus since I’ve been here, and I don’t believe I’ve ever heard you express that. (I’m not opposed to it, and maybe we can even try Day One No Lynch.)

That's not what I'm saying. Ending on a tie is bad. Having ties in the middle of the day is good.

[rdrivera2005]

How on Earth do you guys lynched Vecna? And who changed the rule on hammering? It was forever majority voting both on the biggest wagon and to hammer. Even the bot count this way.

Now I will read the last 20 pages.

Vecna hammered himself and you wonder how we could lynch him?

Yes, I wonder. He was intentionally lurking and when he started to engage people decide to lynch and hammer him because of his "attitude"? I don't buy it from experienced people like Xorxes who always look for motivation. What was a possible motivation for scum Vecna play that way?

[rdrivera2005]

Well this is a silly post.

Why it's silly? When I voted end I didn't knew the hammer mechanic have changed and I never expected it will really happen. And I also said that lynching Vecna wasn't a good option.

You, as any town with half a brain retracted on your end vote. I really doubt we don't have at least 2 scum between the late end voters (Xorxes, Fox, Flum and Chaqa). And Vecna didn't suicide, anyone pushing this is scum, there were two end votes after him that clearly know what they are doing.

Yes, they knew what they were doing, they were hammering someone who had hammered himself.

And do you believe that scum is more likely to hammer himself then town? Care to explain.

[Fluminator]

Ok Bo is town and off the lurker list. Beautiful.

EMC, can you go over your thoughts as well beyond "I'm confused lol"

Why is he town? I have seen him suddenly show up with these long disquisitions as scum before. Off the lurker list, maybe, if he keeps it up, but why town?

Unless Bo has improved at the scum game, he is not able to make posts like that and sound sincere. He really struggles as scum.
Maybe you could link me to the game that happened when he was scum? Maybe my meta is off.

[Fluminator]

In the confusion of the END vote mechanic, there was a small chance scum would "oops I didn't realize" hammer so making sure it wasn't a tie for that is reasonable. I didn't noticed it being especially dwelled upon.

[Fluminator]

If I die, my main request is people don't forget about Chaqa.

[BobMcBob]

Okay, I did not expect a hammer. I thought I'd be able to just pop online, look a bit further and vote in about an hour from now. And why on earth did you guys vote Vecna? In between Dipping, Spelunking and other things, I'll try to take a look at EoD. I like Vecna though. Can't see why y'all would want to kill him. Could have been scum-driven, but I'll take a look.

[bo_sox48]

• Lynching a lurker can be smart. I don't think it was a dumb move today, and I honestly applaud all of you for not only gathering up the courage to convey that line of thinking but also sticking to it. But the implementation of it was fucking miserable. Why hammer? Even if the hammer mechanics were more in line with the norm, it makes no sense. I don't know how ending the day early before any of the many lurkers, myself included, had time to talk was something anyone was comfortable with, but out of the 9 people who ended up hammering a fair number of you were perfectly okay with it.

I more or less agree, but something is missing.

Threatening to hammer is not the same as hammering, and before Vecna voted to end himself nobody was willing to drive the final nail in. I think bozo was the only one who said he would be willing to do it but didn't actually do it. And if Vecna had not ended himself, whoever did cast the 9th vote would have had to give a very good justification. If Vecna had not ended, the phase most likely would have continued, and maybe someone else would have been the final lynch. I at least was willing to listen to him. Vecna gave up, and it looked like it was scum giving up or at least trying some last resort appeal to emotion. Voting for yourself makes no sense as any alignment. Sometimes scum do it to save themselves, and it only has a chance of working because sometimes townies do it as well, for no rational reason. So yes, it was bad, and we need to reread to see who did what, but a lot of the blame was with Vecna himself.

And btw, welcome to the game! The player you are replacing really sucked.

I too more or less agree, and I understand that Vecna's actions are dumb and irrational. I still disagree with hammering, especially once it was clear that the mechanic was different (and much easier to achieve) than usual. Better to get it out of the way now and know about it, I suppose, so that that kind of mechanic doesn't bite us later in the game when we don't expect it.

Can you answer my questions that I posed to you?

[bo_sox48]

How on Earth do you guys lynched Vecna? And who changed the rule on hammering? It was forever majority voting both on the biggest wagon and to hammer. Even the bot count this way.

Now I will read the last 20 pages.

Do you usually question why someone was lynched before you read why they were lynched?

[bo_sox48]

Okay, I just read the hammer mechanic. I don't really like that you can hammer with a majority, even when that majority is not all voting for the same person.

##unend

Though, I would be willing to hammer Vecna if we have a majority of players who want to hammer Vecna. And I think we should give him some period of time to check in and plead his case.

Here we see Balki using his powers for good, not evil. But why is he using his powers for good? And why is he willing to be evil to hammer Vecna?

Update: like 50 other people caught onto this. Hopefully Balki is in some EON scumreads.

@Bo,

Can you flesh this thought out more please? What do you mean when you say “using his powers for good”?

Is this “why is he willing to be evil to hammer Vecna” a question for me or a question for everyone else? Based on your phrasing, it seems more like a rhetorical question for the group. But it’s a bit odd that you’re asking the group and not asking me.

And strange phrasing to hope that “Balki is in some EON scum reads.” Am I among your scumreads? Why are you hoping I am in EON scum reads”?

This feels like a passive aggressive way of going after me. Why not just punch me in the face?

You're obviously in my scumreads; I scumread you. I'm expressing my faith in those who also scumread you to actually scumread you instead of just calling you out on your shit and then forgetting about it as we are so, so good at doing around here. I don't see how that is passive aggressive, but it is true that when I get to posting my thoughts en masse I don't really spend time on individuals even when I scumread them.

By your "powers for good" I am suggesting that not hammering Vecna was a good strategy, because it was a dumb thing to do, but simultaneously expressing uncertainty over your motivations for that change of heart.

[bo_sox48]

Who in the actual shit thinks it's a good idea to hammer day 2 instead of letting the lynch play out at EOD and learning from it, especially when EOD is on a weekend when all of us can actually be around for it for a change

Oh hello.

Why don't youi check in every 24hrs or more, you fucking prick??

Go fuck yourself, and shut your hole.

You quoted the wrong part of that post. I didn't insult you until later in that paragraph.

[worcej]

• Lynching a lurker can be smart. I don't think it was a dumb move today, and I honestly applaud all of you for not only gathering up the courage to convey that line of thinking but also sticking to it. But the implementation of it was fucking miserable. Why hammer? Even if the hammer mechanics were more in line with the norm, it makes no sense. I don't know how ending the day early before any of the many lurkers, myself included, had time to talk was something anyone was comfortable with, but out of the 9 people who ended up hammering a fair number of you were perfectly okay with it.

I more or less agree, but something is missing.

Threatening to hammer is not the same as hammering, and before Vecna voted to end himself nobody was willing to drive the final nail in. I think bozo was the only one who said he would be willing to do it but didn't actually do it. And if Vecna had not ended himself, whoever did cast the 9th vote would have had to give a very good justification. If Vecna had not ended, the phase most likely would have continued, and maybe someone else would have been the final lynch. I at least was willing to listen to him. Vecna gave up, and it looked like it was scum giving up or at least trying some last resort appeal to emotion. Voting for yourself makes no sense as any alignment. Sometimes scum do it to save themselves, and it only has a chance of working because sometimes townies do it as well, for no rational reason. So yes, it was bad, and we need to reread to see who did what, but a lot of the blame was with Vecna himself.

And btw, welcome to the game! The player you are replacing really sucked.

bo never replaced anyone... this is a weird thing for you to slip on...

[bo_sox48]

emc voted more than one hour before EOD, but he was online at EOD as demonstrated by his last post occurring 2 minutes before EOD, yet he did not weigh in on Temasek vs. worcej.

You seem to have a grasp of emc’s meta, as indicated by your thoughts on him bussing. Do you think that emc would be just as hesitant to vote for a leading town candidate as he would be his own teammate? Why or why not?

emc has claimed he waits until the last minute to vote, especially on D1, to maximize his information before voting, but he usually places a meaningful vote at EOD. I believe his being online at EOD and leaving his vote on a one vote wagon was unusual for him, which is why I asked the question.

Fair enough. Thanks.