M54: Not a Carrot Conspiracy

[Vecna]

Please dont NK me scum, I promise im not lurking because im a PR, im just being lazy

[Foxcastle]

Bleh, that's the second recent game where a town PR let himself be mislynched without saying anything. (I know Tem wasn't online at EOD, but still...)

[worcej]

What about this time? You thought it was likely that PR!Tem made himself look scummy on purpose? Even if you thought it was towny of him, wouldn't it be much more likely to risk something like that as a VT than as a PR?

What about this time? I didn't do a reaction test.

Are you referring to what Tem did? If so, with the knowledge of the flip I believe that Tem did his reaction test intentionally under the assumption that he wanted to get a target to RB.

I have explained why I thought Tem was town before his flip and that opinion is unchanged. In fact, it was verified.

Am I missing anything from your questions?

Yes, I think something is still missing.

You thought Tem was towny. You presumably know for sure you are town.

If you have to choose who to lynch between those two, you always choose Tem, unless there's a good chance he is a PR.

Tem's actions suggested that, if he was town, he was a VT (as you said above, you didn't mind risking being scumread for your reaction test because you were a VT in that other game).

If I'm not mistaken, you are saying that you thought that it was plausible that Tem, as PR, would do something very risky like acting scummy on purpose in order to get reactions. Am I understanding you correcly?

Not entirely correct, so here: I know I am town and believe someone else is town. Assuming that person and I are the top wagons, my reactions are the following depending on the game state:

1. D1/D2: I don't vote for them to save myself because I believe they are town. Unless I am a PR, there isn't much value in my life over another town players and self saving just generates more ammo for people to scum me again down the road.
2. Day or so from Mylo: I get pretty passionate and sell people on both cases.
3. Mylo: I yell at the town for being dumb and taking a risk at mylo.
4. Lylo: I go down fighting intensively because I believe these lynches will make us lose the game.

In terms of Tem, I thought he was town. I did not think he was explicitly a PR, but there was a chance of him being one. The chance of that being true

In regards to the last paragraph: I think when it comes to players that have committed numerous displays of poor decision making, you don't assume they suddenly become omniscient to play with peak decision making skills. In Tem's case, the intentional scummy moves is plausible with him because he has displayed terrible decision making in the past.

Also, sidenote: @Tem (in the GT) I am not trying to make this a constant bashing at you. It's just people want my reasons for why I believed you were town and these are them.

[rdrivera2005]

Bleh, that's the second recent game where a town PR let himself be mislynched without saying anything. (I know Tem wasn't online at EOD, but still...)

Why this seems so fake to me? Why you muttered to post this Fox?
I sometimes do this kind of post when I am scum and don't want to lurk too much.

[brainbomb]

theres been a trend of denigrating PRs for claiming which has ushered in a new era of lambasting PRs who get lynched.

its really not fun being a PR. my last game was highly stressful moreso than being scum

[bozotheclown]

I am confident because, as I have said, Tem is a new and unfortunately not good player. His performances in the game when he his PRs have been bad.

If you look at someone under that line of reasoning, I think you can see why I was confident he was town.

I do not think Temasek is that new, and I would not characterize him as a bad player. Can you elaborate on why you think he is not a good player, and what he specifically has done as a town PR that you think was bad?

I mean.. getting oneself lynched is generally bad play regardless of alignment. people dont typically get mislynched if theyre oozing out towntells

That is this game, but worcej was talking about past games.

[BunnyGo]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Towns goal isn’t to not die. It’s to find scum. Especially on a crapshoot day, if I strongly townread the other wagon and I’m VT, I’ll let the wagon movement give us intel. Even if I die, the rest of town gets intel by my flip and the wagons. Worcej has said the same already but less spelled out.

There wasn't much reason to strongly townread Tem I don't think. And it's not clear why anyone would think that their own flip would give more intelligence than someone else's flip. If he strongly suspected that Tem was a PR it may make sense to self sacrifice, but why would he suspect that? It's also not clear that he was in actual danger though, so I don't think his not voting for Tem tells us much. It's his saying that he would not have voted for Tem even if he was in actual danger that is more suspect.

I was explaining the theory.

[bozotheclown]

Bleh, that's the second recent game where a town PR let himself be mislynched without saying anything. (I know Tem wasn't online at EOD, but still...)

Are you talking about the game where I was lynched as the cop?

[rdrivera2005]

I doubt Temasek was really trying to fake scum behavior as a town PR, he likely just made that up to try to defend himself and it backfired.

I think that's the most likely explanation too.

I don't think so, I believe he could be trying to get reactions and also could want to be a bit scumread to avoid being NKled early. I worried about this on the first time I was PR.

[xorxes]

Bleh, that's the second recent game where a town PR let himself be mislynched without saying anything. (I know Tem wasn't online at EOD, but still...)

If he had claimed before going to bed we would have criticized him for claiming too soon, so I don't think that's the worst part.

[brainbomb]

The vig should shoot vecna

[Foxcastle]

Bleh, that's the second recent game where a town PR let himself be mislynched without saying anything. (I know Tem wasn't online at EOD, but still...)

Are you talking about the game where I was lynched as the cop?

Yes, and now that I remember it was you, I do remember you claimed, but too late.

[xorxes]

I doubt Temasek was really trying to fake scum behavior as a town PR, he likely just made that up to try to defend himself and it backfired.

I think that's the most likely explanation too.

I don't think so, I believe he could be trying to get reactions and also could want to be a bit scumread to avoid being NKled early. I worried about this on the first time I was PR.

Maybe, and it got out of hand. It doesn't really matter what his motivations were at this point.

[bozotheclown]

worcej is very hard to lynch when hes town. hes a strong fighter for his perspective. the wagon on worcej felt scummier than worcej. So its worth looking into.

I helped mislynch worcej recently when he was town, because the way he explained his actions made no sense to me. The "reaction test" thing, when he claimed he was doing a reaction test to explain some scummy looking action of his. It was very similar to what happened with Temasek, it was hard to believe that his actions were pre planned. It's hard to believe that Temasek would want to draw a wagon onto himself on purpose as PR too.

And I also didn't care if my actions brought about my demise at the time because I was VT and wanted to create more information with my actions at the time.

Speaking of that game, even after you flipped town I assumed you made up the part about conducting a reaction test because it seemed so unlikely the way you explained it. Did you really deliberately set out to perform a reaction test that game?

[xorxes]

The vig should shoot vecna

Yes. Or maybe we should organize a poll to see who the vig should shoot.

[worcej]

Really? You did not vote for Tem for purposes of self-preservation because you thought Tem might be a PR? When you say "Perhaps...." are you saying what you were actually thinking in the moment, or something else?

I am generally surprised at how confident you were that Tem was town. If you can explain why you were so confident, that would help me a lot in trying to read your slot.

I am confident because, as I have said, Tem is a new and unfortunately not good player. His performances in the game when he his PRs have been bad.

If you look at someone under that line of reasoning, I think you can see why I was confident he was town.

I do not think Temasek is that new, and I would not characterize him as a bad player. Can you elaborate on why you think he is not a good player, and what he specifically has done as a town PR that you think was bad?

Let's see... Here is my analysis of Tem as a player.

1. M52 - He was meh at RP in Kitsune's game because after failing to convert Bunny (which should instantly mean Bunny was the Pilot) he went for him again instead of trying to go for an optimal target in the clear list.
2. More M52 - He also couldn't prevent himself from a Reaver Press violation which ultimately revealed him via GM Note to be anti-town (though the jig was almost up due to the mass claim)
3. M51 - he barely played at LyLo and got himself lynched by not trying in a critical time.
4. M50 - He barely contributed to the mafia QT and was overall passive to the rest of the team. I took this as he had little confidence in his own ability as scum. Ultimately he died due to Darg swapping him, but on my re-read he seemed meh as scum.
5. M49 - He was tracker and dropped unnecessary crumbs and felt forced to claim with almost 3 hours left in the phase. He also thought posting low amounts would keep him from being killed by scum.
6. M48 - He gave up as the last scum without trying too hard.

Overall, inexperienced and not someone to make sound decisions in tough moments.

[Foxcastle]

Bleh, that's the second recent game where a town PR let himself be mislynched without saying anything. (I know Tem wasn't online at EOD, but still...)

Why this seems so fake to me? Why you muttered to post this Fox?
I sometimes do this kind of post when I am scum and don't want to lurk too much.

As opposed to what? "RIP Tem" or something? I am still thinking about how the wagon's shook out, so I'm not sure I have anything useful to say there yet, I'm not getting back into it with Worcej since others are following up on that, and I'm genuinely disappointed that town lost a PR.

[worcej]

I helped mislynch worcej recently when he was town, because the way he explained his actions made no sense to me. The "reaction test" thing, when he claimed he was doing a reaction test to explain some scummy looking action of his. It was very similar to what happened with Temasek, it was hard to believe that his actions were pre planned. It's hard to believe that Temasek would want to draw a wagon onto himself on purpose as PR too.

And I also didn't care if my actions brought about my demise at the time because I was VT and wanted to create more information with my actions at the time.

Speaking of that game, even after you flipped town I assumed you made up the part about conducting a reaction test because it seemed so unlikely the way you explained it. Did you really deliberately set out to perform a reaction test that game?

Yes I actually did, though if you recall it was a slip and not actually trying to be scummy specifically.

[bozotheclown]

Bleh, that's the second recent game where a town PR let himself be mislynched without saying anything. (I know Tem wasn't online at EOD, but still...)

Are you talking about the game where I was lynched as the cop?

Yes, and now that I remember it was you, I do remember you claimed, but too late.

With the doctor already dead, there was no point in claiming early because I would have just been NKed. It was not certain I would be lynched until the last minute, when I claimed cop to at least try to make the mafia use a NK on me.

However, the reason I asked about it was because you were mafia that game and therefore would not have been disappointed about my getting lynched without claiming, yet the way you worded your statement it sounds like it is coming from the perspective of someone who was town both games.

[bozotheclown]

I am confident because, as I have said, Tem is a new and unfortunately not good player. His performances in the game when he his PRs have been bad.

If you look at someone under that line of reasoning, I think you can see why I was confident he was town.

I do not think Temasek is that new, and I would not characterize him as a bad player. Can you elaborate on why you think he is not a good player, and what he specifically has done as a town PR that you think was bad?

Let's see... Here is my analysis of Tem as a player.

1. M52 - He was meh at RP in Kitsune's game because after failing to convert Bunny (which should instantly mean Bunny was the Pilot) he went for him again instead of trying to go for an optimal target in the clear list.
2. More M52 - He also couldn't prevent himself from a Reaver Press violation which ultimately revealed him via GM Note to be anti-town (though the jig was almost up due to the mass claim)
3. M51 - he barely played at LyLo and got himself lynched by not trying in a critical time.
4. M50 - He barely contributed to the mafia QT and was overall passive to the rest of the team. I took this as he had little confidence in his own ability as scum. Ultimately he died due to Darg swapping him, but on my re-read he seemed meh as scum.
5. M49 - He was tracker and dropped unnecessary crumbs and felt forced to claim with almost 3 hours left in the phase. He also thought posting low amounts would keep him from being killed by scum.
6. M48 - He gave up as the last scum without trying too hard.

Overall, inexperienced and not someone to make sound decisions in tough moments.

OK, but none of these indicate that he has a tendency to get scum read as town. Also, it is not clear to me from this why you thought what Temasek was doing was bad town play as opposed to bad scum play.