M54: Not a Carrot Conspiracy

[damo666]

How many scum were on Tem? 1? 2?

Chaqa?
kgray?

What is the value in quantifying the scum before qualifying?

narrows options

[brainbomb]

From the Intravaneous Maf QT, in the stomach

*scraps of meat piled high inside bo-sox stomach cavity. mountains of old pizza floating among a giant lake of stomach acid and bile.

Flumigerminator: *evil voice* Yes my minions. let us toast. to this beautiful manly vessel we can hide inside
BO! all hail bo!

damoH1N5: *smoking* This bo guy is blocked up. poor fuck hasnt taken a shit in years.

BunnyGoSwineFlu: Can you get the mean people to stop being mean. calling me a nazi. Im not some beatrix potter bitch. Im a real boy with real feelings

Flumigerm: Ok. Yes. How about you do the kill. Pick anyone


BungleGoJojoSwineFlu: I wanna kill karen, and zoltan, and princess lenniweather
and all those horrible townies jamie mentioned.

DamoH1N: Those people arent in the game. pull yourself together.

*a giant antacid tablet lands in the middle of the lake*

Damo: BO IS DOSING AGAIN
HE MEANT ANTACID NOT ACID.

*the entire maf team is destroyed and later shit out by bo as he plays bass on the toilet*

[Balki Bartokomous]

Yes... Perhaps I put more value in the chance that Tem was something I am not. Turns out I was right.

Really? You did not vote for Tem for purposes of self-preservation because you thought Tem might be a PR? When you say "Perhaps...." are you saying what you were actually thinking in the moment, or something else?

I am generally surprised at how confident you were that Tem was town. If you can explain why you were so confident, that would help me a lot in trying to read your slot.

I am confident because, as I have said, Tem is a new and unfortunately not good player. His performances in the game when he his PRs have been bad.

If you look at someone under that line of reasoning, I think you can see why I was confident he was town.

So, I really want to understand your line of reasoning here. You are saying that you thought Tem was town and a PR because he was not playing very well and he generally does not play well as a PR.

Is that it?

That sounds to me like an argument for why the mistakes that Tem made were not-alignment indicative. But it does not serve as a reason to believe that Tem is town, unless you would expect Tem to play well as a VT or to play well or differently as mafia.

I can understand this line of thought: "Tem isn't a very strong player, so I'll cut him a bunch of slack if he makes mistakes, and I won't necessarily read him as scum for them."

But that is very different than what seems to be your line of thought, which is (and correct me if I'm wrong): "Tem makes mistakes as a Town PR, so, if he makes mistakes, I am confident he is a Town PR."

[Balki Bartokomous]

Really? You did not vote for Tem for purposes of self-preservation because you thought Tem might be a PR? When you say "Perhaps...." are you saying what you were actually thinking in the moment, or something else?

I am generally surprised at how confident you were that Tem was town. If you can explain why you were so confident, that would help me a lot in trying to read your slot.

Also - you bet your ass I didn’t vote for Tem just to ensure I live when it is D1 and I believed he is town.

Am I the only one that thinks the panicking self-preservation vote is worthless? If I had done it, I most likely would just be giving more ammo to someone like you to bury me later.

I would hope that anyone who is town would prefer to lynch an unknown (and learn a new alignment) if it means avoiding a known mislynch (allowing themselves to be mislynched). I don't think this is a close call at all.

And why care about "giving ammunition" to others. That "ammunition," if used the way you say it might be used, could only be used to [mis]lynch you down the road. So, you're saying that you would prefer to be mislynched today rather than give someone "ammunition" to lead to your mislynch later?

[kgray]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

[Balki Bartokomous]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

If worcej is mafia, I expect he would have voted for Tem to save himself if it came to that. However, it did not come to that. I was following the votes pretty carefully at End of Day. I don’t think there was ever a time when it looked like worcej was most likely to be lynched.

[damo666]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Maybe he was wise to my trap and knew I'd jump back (or suspected such)

[kgray]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Maybe he was wise to my trap and knew I'd jump back (or suspected such)

Ah. So that was the response you expected. Do you think worcej is town?

[damo666]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Maybe he was wise to my trap and knew I'd jump back (or suspected such)

Ah. So that was the response you expected. Do you think worcej is town?

No. It is not the response I expected. I thought Tem was scum and wondered who might jump to worcej to save Tem.

I am giving possible reasons why worcej didn't jump to Tem to save himself.

Worcej may be town or wise scum. I dunno.

[damo666]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Maybe he was wise to my trap and knew I'd jump back (or suspected such)

Ah. So that was the response you expected. Do you think worcej is town?

No. It is not the response I expected. I thought Tem was scum and wondered who might jump to worcej to save Tem.

I am giving possible reasons why worcej didn't jump to Tem to save himself.

Worcej may be town or wise scum. I dunno.

[kgray]

Maybe he was wise to my trap and knew I'd jump back (or suspected such)

Ah. So that was the response you expected. Do you think worcej is town?

No. It is not the response I expected. I thought Tem was scum and wondered who might jump to worcej to save Tem.

I am giving possible reasons why worcej didn't jump to Tem to save himself.

Worcej may be town or wise scum. I dunno.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Do you think anyone saved worcej? Or do you agree with Balki that worcej didn't need saving?

[worcej]

Really? You did not vote for Tem for purposes of self-preservation because you thought Tem might be a PR? When you say "Perhaps...." are you saying what you were actually thinking in the moment, or something else?

I am generally surprised at how confident you were that Tem was town. If you can explain why you were so confident, that would help me a lot in trying to read your slot.

I am confident because, as I have said, Tem is a new and unfortunately not good player. His performances in the game when he his PRs have been bad.

If you look at someone under that line of reasoning, I think you can see why I was confident he was town.

So, I really want to understand your line of reasoning here. You are saying that you thought Tem was town and a PR because he was not playing very well and he generally does not play well as a PR.

Is that it?

That sounds to me like an argument for why the mistakes that Tem made were not-alignment indicative. But it does not serve as a reason to believe that Tem is town, unless you would expect Tem to play well as a VT or to play well or differently as mafia.

I can understand this line of thought: "Tem isn't a very strong player, so I'll cut him a bunch of slack if he makes mistakes, and I won't necessarily read him as scum for them."

But that is very different than what seems to be your line of thought, which is (and correct me if I'm wrong): "Tem makes mistakes as a Town PR, so, if he makes mistakes, I am confident he is a Town PR."

This is getting really annoying to have to repeat the same thing over and over until you get it...

I'll make this exceptionally clear for you Balki:

1. I know what my role is. Surprise! I read my PM.
2. I thought Tem was town. My exact words were "I think Temasek is town" and then I gave my reasoning. You apparently don't like it and still hound me for it.
3. By knowing my role, and thinking Tem is town, I made a choice to not self-preserve over the chance that Tem was a PR. I did not know he was a PR or even suspect him of being one, but he could be one and I did not want to chance lynching a PR to just save my ass.

Now, since you apparently can spin out and not focus, I'll be even more explicit about why I thought he could be town:

BECAUSE TEM IS BAD AT THIS GAME, HE COULD THINK ACTING SCUMMY TO CATCH PEOPLE WOULD BE A GOOD THING TO DO! THIS IS THE DUMB-TOWN MOTIVATION THAT I BELIEVED WAS IN HIS CAPABILITIES! Thus, I BELIEVED HIM WHEN HE SAID HE WAS TOWN.

Now, look back on Tem based on the flip: I WAS RIGHT! Tem was most likely trying to get some insight into scum to allow him to use his RB. Again, he did it in a stupid way, but he is also been bad at being PR's in the past.

[xorxes]

Not good...

This EOD time is not ideal for me. I still have a few pages to read.

[worcej]

Maybe he was wise to my trap and knew I'd jump back (or suspected such)

Ah. So that was the response you expected. Do you think worcej is town?

No. It is not the response I expected. I thought Tem was scum and wondered who might jump to worcej to save Tem.

I am giving possible reasons why worcej didn't jump to Tem to save himself.

Worcej may be town or wise scum. I dunno.

I've already addressed this numerous times.

Stay awhile... and listen...

[worcej]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

If worcej is mafia, I expect he would have voted for Tem to save himself if it came to that. However, it did not come to that. I was following the votes pretty carefully at End of Day. I don’t think there was ever a time when it looked like worcej was most likely to be lynched.

I don't think you can say that when all it would take was 2 people moving to me in the span of a second and then I'd be lynched.

In case you forgot, EOD's are typically chaotic and full of a lot of movement and with some people hiding their forum presence, you cannot tell who is watching to cast a last second vote.

[BunnyGo]

From the Intravaneous Maf QT, in the stomach

*scraps of meat piled high inside bo-sox stomach cavity. mountains of old pizza floating among a giant lake of stomach acid and bile.

Flumigerminator: *evil voice* Yes my minions. let us toast. to this beautiful manly vessel we can hide inside
BO! all hail bo!

damoH1N5: *smoking* This bo guy is blocked up. poor fuck hasnt taken a shit in years.

BunnyGoSwineFlu: Can you get the mean people to stop being mean. calling me a nazi. Im not some beatrix potter bitch. Im a real boy with real feelings

Flumigerm: Ok. Yes. How about you do the kill. Pick anyone


BungleGoJojoSwineFlu: I wanna kill karen, and zoltan, and princess lenniweather
and all those horrible townies jamie mentioned.

DamoH1N: Those people arent in the game. pull yourself together.

*a giant antacid tablet lands in the middle of the lake*

Damo: BO IS DOSING AGAIN
HE MEANT ANTACID NOT ACID.

*the entire maf team is destroyed and later shit out by bo as he plays bass on the toilet*

Woooo! I don’t think I’ve ever made the Scum chat before!

[Balki Bartokomous]

@worcej,

I don’t really care for the hysterics. I can read. I am taking the time to read your posts and question you about them so that we can understand each other. I have read your explanation for your town read on Tem. I am trying to tell you why it doesn’t make sense to me so that you can respond and we can reach some understanding. Repeating the same thing back to me in bold does not advance this process. It is dismissive and makes me feel like you don’t want to be prodded and you don’t want to have a discussion with me.

I get that you think Tem is bad and so being bad does not necessarily make him Scum. I understand that concept.

My response is: sure, but wouldn’t he also be bad as scum?

I see how your reasoning might lead you to think Tem is Null. I do not see why you would read him as town for behaving the way he did. I am engaging with you because I want to understand. Take the time to explain. You have a captive audience.

[brainbomb]

worcej is very hard to lynch when hes town. hes a strong fighter for his perspective. the wagon on worcej felt scummier than worcej. So its worth looking into.

I would be very shocked if worcej was scum here. nothing in his posts D1 or tonight bothers me whatsoever.

Looking at why worcej became a wagon, I think fox is unmistakably town. Im a big fan of damo right now also. Damo is very much in his townmind. Im not as sure about Flum because his push on chaqa and desire to create a cw to tem felt odd. I dont recall why flum even wanted a counter wagon, he never asserted temasek was maybe a ml. So it feels weird


id suggest starting fresh day 2 and looking from the bottom of the post count tally on upward
slots like vecna, pj, sulit, and bo all need dramatic improvements or they need to be lynched first

[xorxes]

From the Intravaneous Maf QT, in the stomach

*scraps of meat piled high inside bo-sox stomach cavity. mountains of old pizza floating among a giant lake of stomach acid and bile.

Flumigerminator: *evil voice* Yes my minions. let us toast. to this beautiful manly vessel we can hide inside
BO! all hail bo!

damoH1N5: *smoking* This bo guy is blocked up. poor fuck hasnt taken a shit in years.

BunnyGoSwineFlu: Can you get the mean people to stop being mean. calling me a nazi. Im not some beatrix potter bitch. Im a real boy with real feelings

Flumigerm: Ok. Yes. How about you do the kill. Pick anyone


BungleGoJojoSwineFlu: I wanna kill karen, and zoltan, and princess lenniweather
and all those horrible townies jamie mentioned.

DamoH1N: Those people arent in the game. pull yourself together.

*a giant antacid tablet lands in the middle of the lake*

Damo: BO IS DOSING AGAIN
HE MEANT ANTACID NOT ACID.

*the entire maf team is destroyed and later shit out by bo as he plays bass on the toilet*

Who can spot the townslip? Bonus points if you can tell whether it's real or fake.

[Balki Bartokomous]

From the Intravaneous Maf QT, in the stomach

*scraps of meat piled high inside bo-sox stomach cavity. mountains of old pizza floating among a giant lake of stomach acid and bile.

Flumigerminator: *evil voice* Yes my minions. let us toast. to this beautiful manly vessel we can hide inside
BO! all hail bo!

damoH1N5: *smoking* This bo guy is blocked up. poor fuck hasnt taken a shit in years.

BunnyGoSwineFlu: Can you get the mean people to stop being mean. calling me a nazi. Im not some beatrix potter bitch. Im a real boy with real feelings

Flumigerm: Ok. Yes. How about you do the kill. Pick anyone


BungleGoJojoSwineFlu: I wanna kill karen, and zoltan, and princess lenniweather
and all those horrible townies jamie mentioned.

DamoH1N: Those people arent in the game. pull yourself together.

*a giant antacid tablet lands in the middle of the lake*

Damo: BO IS DOSING AGAIN
HE MEANT ANTACID NOT ACID.

*the entire maf team is destroyed and later shit out by bo as he plays bass on the toilet*

Who can spot the townslip? Bonus points if you can tell whether it's real or fake.

Mafia does not choose who does the kill, of course. Though, I don’t think Brain saying that is AI.