MAFIA 52: You Can't Take The Sky From Me [HIDDEN]

[xorxes]

Oh what the hell, xorxes.

First off, trying to force everyone to massclaim before consensus is reached is bad form. I don't like it.

Second, why the hell is anyone believing a roleclaim by someone *whose main power is that the GM announced their role*

Seriously folks, think about it. Why in God's name would a captain roleclaim without a GM announcement?

idk, because we'll lynch him if he doesn't confirm it?
no mass claim until then of course

teacon gaining scumpoints here.

[xorxes]

I tend to believe you... for now.

VT is the best possible role to play though, so I don't get why anyone would ask for anything else.

I’m always a VT, though. Seriously. Our of the 35ish games I’ve played. I think I’ve been aVt in like 30 or then or more

Lucky you.

[KalelChase]

That would be wayyy too broad I guess. I think realistically the requirement would probs be usage of certain words or post counts or something like that.

My quicklist for things it could be:
- No swearing
- Punctuation rules
- Misspellings
- # of words
- No contractions

etc.

These are OK, but I don't think the fucking swearing is the problem MOFO. "Punctuation rules" is too general, you need an actual hypothesis.

Contractions is a really good one. I bet that'd be an awesome thing to test.

This reminds me of Data. Has there ever been a ST: TNG one of these?

[KalelChase]

##CALL GM: What happens if Mafia1 and the Reaver target the same player N1? Does the player become a Reaver? Do they die?

Seems a little early to be worried about those details... unless you've got personal stake in either of those teams. -1

Pushed back on RDR. +1

cut it out with the spreadsheet, honestly tired of you pulling that nonsense

I haven't brought it up once. Just like when I stopped leaving my window open, I'm happy to drop the +/- from my commentary if that's the direction.

[KalelChase]

You know me well enough that I'm near guaranteed to want to go for Vecna at some point lol

but not going to give rPrime any ideas, for all we know they're new or out-of-date, and clueless towards good recruits ;p

Speaking of new and clueless.... welcome to the game Superstition.

I waited until my 4th game to read this; https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3 ... ?f=4&t=272

Don't make the same mistake.

Dont read it, it will corrupt your mind, and then you can never go back, this game takes looking at things objectively, instead of trying to find all the neat little trickery tricks, news flash; they dont work

Flav - I would like to read your version of this. Everything you teach me is almost the opposite of what I was told in the first two games. I'm going to reconsider how much of that guide I was going to incorporate into this game.

[xorxes]

Other thoughts on a mass claim:
- If the BH has players they need to kill, this might go a long way towards halting progress towards their wincon.

BH's targets are random, so it really matters very little in regard to those targets how we decide our lynches. We basically have to ignore the BH and hope they die before their targets do.

- Mass claiming right now gives mafia the best set of targets to pick from for an NK, but iirc they don't have scumPR to use just yet, just an NK. So they can't actually RB anyone yet.

Not true, but I won't buy it as a townslip though.

- Mass claiming right now gives the reaver the best chance to neutralize PR that could hinder his wincon. So that's bad for us. It also forces people to claim powers now... so it helps us find players who get reaver'd and can't use their powers later.

@xorxes - In general, what ratio of PR::VT do you think would make a mass claim strategy worthwhile? Where does this game fit into that ratio?

I don't know. This game feels to me on the massclaim-friendly side.

[xorxes]

Speaking of new and clueless.... welcome to the game Superstition.

I waited until my 4th game to read this; https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3 ... ?f=4&t=272

Don't make the same mistake.

Dont read it, it will corrupt your mind, and then you can never go back, this game takes looking at things objectively, instead of trying to find all the neat little trickery tricks, news flash; they dont work

Flav - I would like to read your version of this. Everything you teach me is almost the opposite of what I was told in the first two games. I'm going to reconsider how much of that guide I was going to incorporate into this game.

Kalel, you can't possibly take everything anyone ever says to you as wise words of wisdom to treasure forever. It sounds so sycophantic. (Now thank me profusely for this piece of advice.)

[KalelChase]

Dont read it, it will corrupt your mind, and then you can never go back, this game takes looking at things objectively, instead of trying to find all the neat little trickery tricks, news flash; they dont work

Flav - I would like to read your version of this. Everything you teach me is almost the opposite of what I was told in the first two games. I'm going to reconsider how much of that guide I was going to incorporate into this game.

Kalel, you can't possibly take everything anyone ever says to you as wise words of wisdom to treasure forever. It sounds so sycophantic. (Now thank me profusely for this piece of advice.)

It's in my nature to be nurtured... thanks.

[goldfinger0303]

Xorxes, I thought about your advice on the drive in to work, and I still don't see the benefit, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just a bit Rusty and it'll come to me. But the only benefits I see don't jive with your massclaim push.

Other than that, I'd really like to hear more points of view in support of the massclaim. You're pushing it so hard and so frequently that we risk making this an echo chamber and drowning out other people. There's still people lurking hard. There's people who have just dropped in for one or two poorly written comments that show that they haven't really been reading the thread. And because the conversation is fixed on this, they're not getting pressure.

[xorxes]

Xorxes, I thought about your advice on the drive in to work, and I still don't see the benefit, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just a bit Rusty and it'll come to me. But the only benefits I see don't jive with your massclaim push.

Other than that, I'd really like to hear more points of view in support of the massclaim. You're pushing it so hard and so frequently that we risk making this an echo chamber and drowning out other people. There's still people lurking hard. There's people who have just dropped in for one or two poorly written comments that show that they haven't really been reading the thread. And because the conversation is fixed on this, they're not getting pressure.

Good targets for the Vig.

[goldfinger0303]

Xorxes, I thought about your advice on the drive in to work, and I still don't see the benefit, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just a bit Rusty and it'll come to me. But the only benefits I see don't jive with your massclaim push.

Other than that, I'd really like to hear more points of view in support of the massclaim. You're pushing it so hard and so frequently that we risk making this an echo chamber and drowning out other people. There's still people lurking hard. There's people who have just dropped in for one or two poorly written comments that show that they haven't really been reading the thread. And because the conversation is fixed on this, they're not getting pressure.

Good targets for the Vig.

How is that any better than if we massclaim? If we massclaim, Vig should shoot before EON1 anyways.

[goldfinger0303]

Sorry, scratch that I misunderstood your comment.

[teacon7]

Short on time. Anything important thus far?

Xorx is asking about a mass claim. There's some agreement, but doesn't seem like a majority. xorx claimed captain, but hasn't had the GM confirm it.

I for one would be a lot more comfortable following the massclaim idea from a GM-confirmed town xorxes.

Moderator knows me. I love the game, interested in how the forum method works.

Great! We're glad to have you.

Any thoughts so far on what people are saying?

[peterlund]

Ok, I convinced myself, let's get this thing rolling.

I am the CAPTAIN.

I may ask the GM to reveal me before EOD, or maybe I will wait until the night. I don't expect to be counterclaimed, although if someone wants to, I will be delighted, so the hero can shoot you.

As I said, I don't expect to be recruited, because if I am recruited I lose the extra votes and so I'm immediately exposed. So it's bad for me and bad for Reaver team.

I may be NKd, but then again, there are a few protectives roles out there, so I might survive for a little while.

I strongly urge the HERO to shoot someone today. Anyone who does not claim PR is fair game. I will give my suggestions before EOD. Don't shoot people who claim PR obviously. Also, don't shoot too soon, wait as much as possible so everyone has a chance to claim, but also give the Reader enough time to choose their target so they don't waste it on the same one you are shooting. So maybe two-three hours before EOD.

READER should definitely read someone during the day, so they can't be roleblocked. Again, choose someone who does not claim PR. If you can let us know that you will be here for EOD so you can choose your target all the better.

Why in hell would you not ask the GM to reveal your true identity after you have claimed Captain? And why should the HERO not shoot you and the READER not scan you, as long as the GM has not confirmed your claim?

[Jamiet99uk]

CLAIMS SO FAR:

Xorxes: Captain
Chaqa: VT


@Xorxes: Asking again - why do you think I am a VT? Seems a weird thing to assert before I've claimed. Demanding a massclaim and speculating what specific people are going to claim feels rather.... off.

[peterlund]

If you think about it, I'm sure you can figure out why it's better for me to wait.

If I'm lying, I will be counterclaimed and you have caught scum, since it would be trivial for the real Captain to prove I'm lying. Are you saying I'm lying in order to out the real captain? Does that make any sense to you?

I think you only are trying to get the real Captain to CC your claim, or you are counting on the real Captain to stay quite since he can let the GM confirm him at any time. Either way are great outcomes for scum. Captain fishing ehh?

[Jamiet99uk]

If you think about it, I'm sure you can figure out why it's better for me to wait.

If I'm lying, I will be counterclaimed and you have caught scum, since it would be trivial for the real Captain to prove I'm lying. Are you saying I'm lying in order to out the real captain? Does that make any sense to you?

I think you only are trying to get the real Captain to CC your claim, or you are counting on the real Captain to stay quite since he can let the GM confirm him at any time. Either way are great outcomes for scum. Captain fishing ehh?

But as soon as that happened, town would lynch or shoot Xorxes, no? If Xorxes is lying, the real Captain should reveal, and we can kill Xorxes at once.

[Jamiet99uk]

I hardclaim that I am not the Captain.

[peterlund]

- It reduces considerably the lynchpool for us to find scum.
- It eliminates the possibility that our PRs waste their powers or even harm the town with them.

Miscalculation, since I and probably some more people will not take part the mass-claim so the lynch pool will be considerably larger than 10 even if we believe all claimants claims...

[teacon7]

BH's targets are random, so it really matters very little in regard to those targets how we decide our lynches. We basically have to ignore the BH and hope they die before their targets do.

It doesn't matter to us, but it matters a great deal to the BH. He might have to push a PR claimant, which is ... going to make his life difficult. net gain for all non-BH aligned.

Not true, but I won't buy it as a townslip though.

Fair enough. I had to go look it up again.

They get an RB, and can investigate a role. In a claim situation they'd not need to find out town roles, but would then go towards finding the reaver from the now-smaller pool. This rather reduces what I thought was the advantage of a massclaim on D1.

So I guess I should ask again: Why do this so early on D1?

@xorxes - In general, what ratio of PR::VT do you think would make a mass claim strategy worthwhile? Where does this game fit into that ratio?

I don't know. This game feels to me on the massclaim-friendly side.

I want to register that I really don't like "gut feels" as a justification. Even when there is logic behind it, it looks to outsiders like an unsubstantiated case. Scum could easily say things like "well, I think so and so is scum because it feels like it." For the sake of other people, it seems like it's worth explaining. I'm not trying to throw shade your way for having a gut feeling, but I'd be better persuaded if I hear them explained better. We did this before and it turned out TvT, so I'll just... let that sit. I'd love to see some more explicit math.