MAFIA 52: You Can't Take The Sky From Me [HIDDEN]

[xorxes]

Short on time. Anything important thus far?

We're massclaiming.

[Superstition]

Yeah I've played many times in person. Its about how well you lie and can read body language. But I'm used to two roles only so this is very complex comparatively and the terms a little harder to follow and retain. The whole forum thing seems odd for this game. At least in person, silent players can still be read. I'll do my best.

Welcome to the game.

Forum games have posting requirements, which theoretically force players to give *something* that can be read.
Forum format is nice because there are lots of crazy mechanics to spice up the game.

If you don't mind my asking, how'd you find the game? You sort of signed up out of nowhere. Do you know someone else who plays?

Moderator knows me. I love the game, interested in how the forum method works.

[xorxes]

Ok, I convinced myself, let's get this thing rolling.

I am the CAPTAIN.

I may ask the GM to reveal me before EOD, or maybe I will wait until the night. I don't expect to be counterclaimed, although if someone wants to, I will be delighted, so the hero can shoot you.

As I said, I don't expect to be recruited, because if I am recruited I lose the extra votes and so I'm immediately exposed. So it's bad for me and bad for Reaver team.

I may be NKd, but then again, there are a few protectives roles out there, so I might survive for a little while.

I strongly urge the HERO to shoot someone today. Anyone who does not claim PR is fair game. I will give my suggestions before EOD. Don't shoot people who claim PR obviously. Also, don't shoot too soon, wait as much as possible so everyone has a chance to claim, but also give the Reader enough time to choose their target so they don't waste it on the same one you are shooting. So maybe two-three hours before EOD.

READER should definitely read someone during the day, so they can't be roleblocked. Again, choose someone who does not claim PR. If you can let us know that you will be here for EOD so you can choose your target all the better.

Look at him - he’s the captain now.

Are we doing this then, xorxes?

Yes!

[Jamiet99uk]

So Jamiet, you're VT then?

What makes you assume that?

I'll claim my role when at least 6 other people have done so.

[teacon7]

So I gave it thought for the night. I'm doubtful that a mass claim is a good idea. It might give us a smaller lynch pool, but imo it gives too much help to non-town wincons. Let me explain what I'm thinking:

-lots of roles are confirmable, lots are ...fuzzier. Just because a role is named doesn't mean it's confirmed - i.e., how does a Reader confirm themselves? How can we verify the twins without shooting one of them? how would a backup doc know what to claim?
-Why wouldn't scum cc something? I don't want to explain how that might work, but their powers could conceivably mimic some of the town powers. Obviously the player cc'd will know who is lying, but sorting out cc's is going to take time away from the pool of vt claimants.
-Doing all that will take time. It'll give the scumteams too many phases worth of more information - they will have better info on who to kill/block/recruit to neutralize any advantage that PR collaboration might give.

I guess I just don't understand how massclaims work, and someone needs to explain it to me like I'm five.

[Chaqa]

I wish I had something more fun to claim. I specifically told Kit to make me anything but a VT, and she made me a VT... :/

[BunnyGo]

Short on time. Anything important thus far?

Xorxes claimed captain. Nobody else has claimed.

But he hasn’t activated his power. Also:

##CALL GM. If the captain gets turned to a reaver, does he lose his extra votes? Same question for other PR too.

[teacon7]

Short on time. Anything important thus far?

Xorxes claimed captain. Nobody else has claimed.

But he hasn’t activated his power. Also:

##CALL GM. If the captain gets turned to a reaver, does he lose his extra votes? Same question for other PR too.

Yeah so xorx has gotta be captain. I can't see him playing D1 this way otherwise.

From what I understand, reaver'd PR lose their powers.

[Kitsune]

Short on time. Anything important thus far?

Xorxes claimed captain. Nobody else has claimed.

But he hasn’t activated his power. Also:

##CALL GM. If the captain gets turned to a reaver, does he lose his extra votes? Same question for other PR too.

You are REAVER 0, the REAVER PRIME

During the day you must vote for a suspect.

You have a nightkill. The first two people successfully nightkilled by the Reaver faction using this power are Recruited instead of dying. They are now Reavers, losing the use of their existing powers (if any) and share the Reavers win condition. They will inherit the Reaver Prime power in order of age if the original Reaver Prime dies. Communication restrictions on the Reaver role also apply to Reaver Prime, described at <link>.

You are part of the Reavers and you win when both Town and Alliance factions are eliminated or cannot win and the Neutral has not yet won.

All powers attached to existing Power Roles are nullified when or if they are Recruited to the Reaver faction.

[xorxes]

-lots of roles are confirmable, lots are ...fuzzier. Just because a role is named doesn't mean it's confirmed - i.e., how does a Reader confirm themselves? How can we verify the twins without shooting one of them? how would a backup doc know what to claim?

Reader confirms themselves by claiming. If there's no counterclaim, they are confirmed. If there is a counterclaim, joy! we got one. Same for the twins.

Backup doc doesn't know they're backup doc. So they can only claim VT. Not much they can do about it with or without massclaim.

-Why wouldn't scum cc something? I don't want to explain how that might work, but their powers could conceivably mimic some of the town powers.
Obviously the player cc'd will know who is lying, but sorting out cc's is going to take time away from the pool of vt claimants.

Let them counterclaim then. That's great. Let's see if the fake claim can be more convincing than the real one. And they can fakeclaim whether we massclaim or not anyway, so if they want to do it, it's better we make them commit to it D1, and not 10 minutes before they are going to be lynched.

-Doing all that will take time. It'll give the scumteams too many phases worth of more information - they will have better info on who to kill/block/recruit to neutralize any advantage that PR collaboration might give.

Scumteams will be acquiring information as phases go anyway. And they start with way more information than town has.

I guess I just don't understand how massclaims work, and someone needs to explain it to me like I'm five.

- It reduces considerably the lynchpool for us to find scum.
- It eliminates the possibility that our PRs waste their powers or even harm the town with them.

[xorxes]

I wish I had something more fun to claim. I specifically told Kit to make me anything but a VT, and she made me a VT... :/

I tend to believe you... for now.

[xorxes]

I wish I had something more fun to claim. I specifically told Kit to make me anything but a VT, and she made me a VT... :/

I tend to believe you... for now.

VT is the best possible role to play though, so I don't get why anyone would ask for anything else.

[goldfinger0303]

Oh what the hell, xorxes.

First off, trying to force everyone to massclaim before consensus is reached is bad form. I don't like it.

Second, why the hell is anyone believing a roleclaim by someone *whose main power is that the GM announced their role*

Seriously folks, think about it. Why in God's name would a captain roleclaim without a GM announcement?

[xorxes]

Oh what the hell, xorxes.

First off, trying to force everyone to massclaim before consensus is reached is bad form. I don't like it.

Second, why the hell is anyone believing a roleclaim by someone *whose main power is that the GM announced their role*

Seriously folks, think about it. Why in God's name would a captain roleclaim without a GM announcement?

If you think about it, I'm sure you can figure out why it's better for me to wait.

If I'm lying, I will be counterclaimed and you have caught scum, since it would be trivial for the real Captain to prove I'm lying. Are you saying I'm lying in order to out the real captain? Does that make any sense to you?

[teacon7]

Reader confirms themselves by claiming. If there's no counterclaim, they are confirmed. If there is a counterclaim, joy! we got one. Same for the twins.

So fwiw I want the word "confirmed" to mean like... "mechanically cleared," rather than "no opposition." I want greater degrees of certainty than someone claiming can provide. But that's semantics and strategy, I do see what you're saying here. It's not mechanically confirming very many people, it's the number of claims that makes it more difficult to hide.

-Doing all that will take time. It'll give the scumteams too many phases worth of more information - they will have better info on who to kill/block/recruit to neutralize any advantage that PR collaboration might give.

Scumteams will be acquiring information as phases go anyway. And they start with way more information than town has.

Scum doesn't start out knowing roles, which to some extent mitigates the information differential. A mass claim takes the guesswork out of their deliberations, and makes it more about numbers.

Given a larger pool of likely-confirmed-claimants, does town win a numbers game there?

I guess I just don't understand how massclaims work, and someone needs to explain it to me like I'm five.

- It reduces considerably the lynchpool for us to find scum.
- It eliminates the possibility that our PRs waste their powers or even harm the town with them.

I'm nervous about this because it seems like there are ways around it. Let me think on it...

[teacon7]

Oh what the hell, xorxes.

First off, trying to force everyone to massclaim before consensus is reached is bad form. I don't like it.

Second, why the hell is anyone believing a roleclaim by someone *whose main power is that the GM announced their role*

Seriously folks, think about it. Why in God's name would a captain roleclaim without a GM announcement?

idk, because we'll lynch him if he doesn't confirm it?
no mass claim until then of course

[teacon7]

I wish I had something more fun to claim. I specifically told Kit to make me anything but a VT, and she made me a VT... :/

aww don't be sad. VT is the best. Also, you could actually just be reaver/scum claiming VT, so I can't feel too bad for you.

[Chaqa]

I wish I had something more fun to claim. I specifically told Kit to make me anything but a VT, and she made me a VT... :/

I tend to believe you... for now.

VT is the best possible role to play though, so I don't get why anyone would ask for anything else.

I’m always a VT, though. Seriously. Our of the 35ish games I’ve played. I think I’ve been aVt in like 30 or then or more

[teacon7]

Other thoughts on a mass claim:
- If the BH has players they need to kill, this might go a long way towards halting progress towards their wincon.
- Mass claiming right now gives mafia the best set of targets to pick from for an NK, but iirc they don't have scumPR to use just yet, just an NK. So they can't actually RB anyone yet.
- Mass claiming right now gives the reaver the best chance to neutralize PR that could hinder his wincon. So that's bad for us. It also forces people to claim powers now... so it helps us find players who get reaver'd and can't use their powers later.


@xorxes - In general, what ratio of PR::VT do you think would make a mass claim strategy worthwhile? Where does this game fit into that ratio?

[xorxes]

I'm nervous about this because it seems like there are ways around it. Let me think on it...

It is not a guaranteed win, or the game would indeed be broken, and of course it gives some advantages to scum, mostly to the Reavers, but they start weaker anyway, and it also may help the other Mafia a bit. But it also helps town a lot.

And even if we somehow manage to mislynch five times in a row in a pool of 10 with five scum in there (and managing to do that would be quite an accomplishment), even then, we still would not have lost yet.