M50 Apocalypse Meme Redux

[TrPrado]

3P would be a main reason to Massclaim, they don't have disguises.

But in general, it seems to me that the Massclaim is dangerous for town (even if more dangerous to scum and 3p.) The assassin power makes massclaiming suicide for our 'good' roles.

But I am happy to discuss it. Bozo? Xorxes?

I mean there's also the assassin, a 3P that would also benefit from the massclaim if they're in the game

[Squigs44]

I'm not sure how the Assasin is a big deterrent for a mass claim. If I understand correctly we don't lose if the Assasin wins, they just "exit from the game upon completion of their contract". So a masscalim facilitates their win but it does not cause us to lose, and some of the roles they have to kill might be scum roles also. So it's not very clear to me that a massclaim is a bad idea just because of the Assasin. It is maybe slightly worse, but not a terrible idea.

If the assassin had 3 mafia targets then massclaim would be auto win. However, if assassin has 3 town targets, then he quickly dispatches them with his gun and we are left at 10 town, 5 mafia, 2 3ps before day 1 ends (if I understand the new assassin works). Best case scenario is great, but worst case is real bad.

[TrPrado]

Oh oof might want to read the thread before I say something redundant huh?

[xorxes]

I understand that some people have expressed that they do not like the idea of mass claiming because they think it adversely effects the quality of the game. However, in my opinion, town should not be expected to play suboptimally because some players prefer playing without a mass claim, the setup should prevent town from benefiting from a mass claim if the goal is to keep a mass claim from "ruining " the game. I believe a mass claim would still benefit town with the current setup, since the assassin winning does not prevent town from winning also.

Exactly my thoughts.

The assasin being able to kill makes the strategy a little more costly possibly, although not necessarily (it depends on what roles they have to kill), but it still looks like the best strategy as it forces all scum to commit to a role early and before consultation.

[bozotheclown]

I was getting pretty annoyed in the first version of this game with how much of it was about trying to break the spirit of the game just to get a town win. I don't play Mafia here to just win no matter what - I play to investigate, push cases, and get reactions.

I hope you understand why, regardless of any alignment, I will not cooperate in a mass-claim on D1 because of this.

It may be your opinion that a mass claim is against "the spirit of the game", but in my opinion deliberately playing in a suboptimal manner so the game plays out a certain way is against "the spirit of the game".

[KalelChase]

I was getting pretty annoyed in the first version of this game with how much of it was about trying to break the spirit of the game just to get a town win. I don't play Mafia here to just win no matter what - I play to investigate, push cases, and get reactions.

I hope you understand why, regardless of any alignment, I will not cooperate in a mass-claim on D1 because of this.

So you're willing for town to loose for your selfish fun?

[KalelChase]

I'd be interested in a vote thing, though... like someone started yesterday/today.

What I looked up called it Popcorn. Suggested we point the finger at the most scummy, but one at a time. The scumlean would claim in order to try and clear themselves. I'd be in on this as I like the massclaim concept.

Even if we don't do it 'causally' it would make sense for any 2nd place wagon to claim after a lynch.

[Kitsune]

By my understanding the Assassin may still only visit one target at night (although I recognise that isn't written explicitly).

I believe this is the nk mechanic as understood by the GMs, although it's worth confirming.

##CALL GM - confirming the Assassin may only visit one target per night regardless of how many bullets they have?

This being said, I hadn't noticed that an Assassin win (if they are indeed in the game) doesn't prevent a town win which takes some of my concern away.

Also, don't straw-man me

I said and still think a mass claim is a bad idea, although since it's something GMs design for I don't believe it's against the spirit of the game. That said I will cooperate provided at least 5 players claim before me.

Don't paint me as refusing to claim please. I'll cooperate with any reasonable pro-town proposal.

[TrPrado]

I understand that some people have expressed that they do not like the idea of mass claiming because they think it adversely effects the quality of the game. However, in my opinion, town should not be expected to play suboptimally because some players prefer playing without a mass claim, the setup should prevent town from benefiting from a mass claim if the goal is to keep a mass claim from "ruining " the game. I believe a mass claim would still benefit town with the current setup, since the assassin winning does not prevent town from winning also.

Exactly my thoughts.

The assasin being able to kill makes the strategy a little more costly possibly, although not necessarily (it depends on what roles they have to kill), but it still looks like the best strategy as it forces all scum to commit to a role early and before consultation.

One of the GM notes going into this (also reflected in the updates to the role list) is that scum are each getting an individual fake claim role they can use. Also for the record, as scum last time I was kind of HOPING it would end up happening. We had a role that was non-confirmable, a role that we could easily fake a confirm for, and a role that by its very nature doesn't want to be confirmed. The only one we wouldn't have been able to pull off was innocent child. We were all very comfortable with the possibility of a massclaim, so I'm gonna go all in on saying this is a bad idea now.

[xorxes]

I didn't have a chance to comment yesterday, but here is my take on massclaim. It is unlikely a massclaim will happen this early. It would take full participation to be effective, right? And there are already a few who don't like it. SO I wonder if it is a safe thing to push for a scum (or i suppose 3p) who wants to appear to be proposing a pro-town thing. Knowing it won't come to it.

Nonsense. I was Vig last game, and bozo, Squigs and Kits who were the main people on board with it were all town. The most vocal opponent (Flav) was scum.

Also, it does not require full participation, just a sensible majority. People who choose not to participate basically put themselves in the lynchpool.

However, later in the game we will have more likely a full support Massclaim. THEN I would be more open, because a push for it would seem (to me) more realistic.

Massclaims always eventually happen. The question here is whether we want to reduce the lynchpool for the first few lynches or just lynch more or less randomly and as ususal make it more likley to hit town.

[KalelChase]

I was getting pretty annoyed in the first version of this game with how much of it was about trying to break the spirit of the game just to get a town win. I don't play Mafia here to just win no matter what - I play to investigate, push cases, and get reactions.

I hope you understand why, regardless of any alignment, I will not cooperate in a mass-claim on D1 because of this.

It may be your opinion that a mass claim is against "the spirit of the game", but in my opinion deliberately playing in a suboptimal manner so the game plays out a certain way is against "the spirit of the game".

Agreed, if massclaim 'breaks' this kind of game then it's better for us to break it now so the GMs can adjust games in the future, rather than to leave an obvious loophole.

[Kitsune]

I understand that some people have expressed that they do not like the idea of mass claiming because they think it adversely effects the quality of the game. However, in my opinion, town should not be expected to play suboptimally because some players prefer playing without a mass claim, the setup should prevent town from benefiting from a mass claim if the goal is to keep a mass claim from "ruining " the game. I believe a mass claim would still benefit town with the current setup, since the assassin winning does not prevent town from winning also.

Exactly my thoughts.

The assasin being able to kill makes the strategy a little more costly possibly, although not necessarily (it depends on what roles they have to kill), but it still looks like the best strategy as it forces all scum to commit to a role early and before consultation.

Xorxes, the Mafia-scum already have cover roles remember. They may lie about them, but I don't see a reason they would. This is mostly useful to winkle out 3P - which is admittedly useful as lynching any of 3P at D1 would appear to be pro-town.

[xorxes]

I was getting pretty annoyed in the first version of this game with how much of it was about trying to break the spirit of the game just to get a town win. I don't play Mafia here to just win no matter what - I play to investigate, push cases, and get reactions.

I hope you understand why, regardless of any alignment, I will not cooperate in a mass-claim on D1 because of this.

Arguing on the pros and cons of a perfectly valid strategy like massclaiming is completely within the spirit of the game. It is also a way to get reactions, so what are you talking about? There's nothing game breaking about it.

[Squigs44]

Assassin is a NK thing. Okay this isn't as bad as I thought

[xorxes]

I'm not sure how the Assasin is a big deterrent for a mass claim. If I understand correctly we don't lose if the Assasin wins, they just "exit from the game upon completion of their contract". So a masscalim facilitates their win but it does not cause us to lose, and some of the roles they have to kill might be scum roles also. So it's not very clear to me that a massclaim is a bad idea just because of the Assasin. It is maybe slightly worse, but not a terrible idea.

If the assassin had 3 mafia targets then massclaim would be auto win. However, if assassin has 3 town targets, then he quickly dispatches them with his gun and we are left at 10 town, 5 mafia, 2 3ps before day 1 ends (if I understand the new assassin works). Best case scenario is great, but worst case is real bad.

Are we reading the same role list? I'm not sure because I'm using the link from the last game as the one from this game seems to be broken. The Assasin only gets one shot per night, if I understand correctly.

[Vaporwave]

Kitsune came in full force with that mega post

Can anyone guess what I'm doing right now?

playing video games

....and we're back to massclaim discussion

[Vaporwave]

SO... Bob... did you random scum again?

Lmao, we can speculate, I'm actually wondering if any of our ex-mates got scum randed again

this time you're more chatty, dargo

do you feel more relaxed?

[xorxes]

I understand that some people have expressed that they do not like the idea of mass claiming because they think it adversely effects the quality of the game. However, in my opinion, town should not be expected to play suboptimally because some players prefer playing without a mass claim, the setup should prevent town from benefiting from a mass claim if the goal is to keep a mass claim from "ruining " the game. I believe a mass claim would still benefit town with the current setup, since the assassin winning does not prevent town from winning also.

Exactly my thoughts.

The assasin being able to kill makes the strategy a little more costly possibly, although not necessarily (it depends on what roles they have to kill), but it still looks like the best strategy as it forces all scum to commit to a role early and before consultation.

One of the GM notes going into this (also reflected in the updates to the role list) is that scum are each getting an individual fake claim role they can use. Also for the record, as scum last time I was kind of HOPING it would end up happening. We had a role that was non-confirmable, a role that we could easily fake a confirm for, and a role that by its very nature doesn't want to be confirmed. The only one we wouldn't have been able to pull off was innocent child. We were all very comfortable with the possibility of a massclaim, so I'm gonna go all in on saying this is a bad idea now.

In that case, you would all have been in the very small lynchpool remaining after the massclaim. The only reason you were all comfortable is that you did not understand what would happen. Claiming a role does not make you lynch immune.

[Kitsune]

Kitsune came in full force with that mega post

One of the worst things you can do to me is stop me talking

Decided I had to get something out in case we had another 2-hour day.

[BunnyGo]

Here for a second. But if I say the hammer phrase and it doesn’t trigger end of day. Is that useful? I mean. Its a pretty quick way to out the hammer. Right?