Abusing The Word "coward"

[flash2015]

Recently a journalist on Twitter criticized Trump for calling Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi a coward which is certainly reasonable given the definition of coward I know. From dictionary.com, a US website a coward is:

"a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person."

The guy blew himself up FFS rather than allowing himself to be captured. That doesn't sound cowardly to me.

However the journalist (Max Boot) had to delete his tweet and self-censor after a hailstorm of criticism.

I really dislike this sort of rampant jingoism. ISIS is an evil organization...but we shouldn't need to lie about it too.

What do you think? Am I right..or am I being a pedant? Or since I live in the US and am not a US citizen since I don't like it should I "go back to my own country"?

[Randomizer]

There was also criticism about the Washington Post calling him an "austere religious scholar" in one headline version of the obituary.

[flash2015]

There was also criticism about the Washington Post calling him an "austere religious scholar" in one headline version of the obituary.

Yes that was very silly. The #WaPoDeathNotices thread which came out of that was very funny.

[MajorMitchell]

In my opinion the best statement you made flash2015 is where you express your dislike of rampant jingoism, make the credible point that ISIS are evil ( I say "enemies of the world"/ hostis humani generis is an apt description for ISIS ) and the most important point.. we don't need to lie about ISIS or what occurred, the effective execution of this Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi blighter.
I've watched a comparison of 3 POTUSs Bush, Obama and Trump announcing the deaths of Saddam, Bin Laden & Baghdadi . What can I say? Trumptoad is what he is.

[Octavious]

The guy blew himself up FFS rather than allowing himself to be captured. That doesn't sound cowardly to me

It depends on your definition of courage, I suppose. I don't see a lot of it in blowing yourself up. Indeed, in doing so he seems to have taken the least difficult path open to him, so I'd agree with Trump that this seems a cowardly act.

Whether or not cowardice defined the rest of his life is less clear to me. You'd suspect not, as it seems to go against the job description somewhat, but cowards can be remarkably resourceful. Who knows?

So in short I don't think it was a lie. I suspect Trump genuinely believes him to be a coward, and that many millions will agree.

[flash2015]

The guy blew himself up FFS rather than allowing himself to be captured. That doesn't sound cowardly to me

It depends on your definition of courage, I suppose. I don't see a lot of it in blowing yourself up. Indeed, in doing so he seems to have taken the least difficult path open to him, so I'd agree with Trump that this seems a cowardly act.

Whether or not cowardice defined the rest of his life is less clear to me. You'd suspect not, as it seems to go against the job description somewhat, but cowards can be remarkably resourceful. Who knows?

So in short I don't think it was a lie. I suspect Trump genuinely believes him to be a coward, and that many millions will agree.

To define his actions as cowardly, you have to define what the non-cowardly option was. The US storms his compound/house/whatever with overwhelming force. The biggest danger to his horribly warped cause is to get captured as the US could have tortured him for information and used his capture for propaganda purposes. The "cowardly" option here IMHO would have been to choose his life over his cause and allow himself to be captured and imprisoned. But instead he decided to kill himself hoping to take some of his attackers with him.

What do you think? If you think the way he killed himself was cowardly what could he have done here to make himself a non-coward? I am not understanding.

[Octavious]

To define his actions as cowardly, you have to define what the non-cowardly option was

I would suggest that the non cowardly option is the one where you suffer the American legal system and work daily for the rest of your life for whatever minimal gains you can achieve, rather than blowing yourself up and taking 3 kids with you.

[Randomizer]

You also have to consider his religious views where he might consider death by blowing up making him a martyr where he goes to Islamic heaven. That's why so many suicide bombers exist there compared to other areas and religions.

[orathaic]

To define his actions as cowardly, you have to define what the non-cowardly option was

I would suggest that the non cowardly option is the one where you suffer the American legal system and work daily for the rest of your life for whatever minimal gains you can achieve, rather than blowing yourself up and taking 3 kids with you.

That is rather pathetic. Apart from the fact that he was never going to have a trial in the US legal system. Refusing to accept the authority of the US may not make one wise, but I don't see it as cowardly (especially when the US doesn't even claim sovereignty outside of the US...).

[Octavious]

To define his actions as cowardly, you have to define what the non-cowardly option was

I would suggest that the non cowardly option is the one where you suffer the American legal system and work daily for the rest of your life for whatever minimal gains you can achieve, rather than blowing yourself up and taking 3 kids with you.

That is rather pathetic. Apart from the fact that he was never going to have a trial in the US legal system. Refusing to accept the authority of the US may not make one wise, but I don't see it as cowardly (especially when the US doesn't even claim sovereignty outside of the US...).

You don't see blowing yourself and three kids up as cowardly?

What exactly would fit your description of cowardly?!?

[orathaic]

That is not what I said at all.

I said accepting US authority is not the definition of 'brave'.

Not that your proposed 'American justice' was in any way realistic, as giving him a trial would have allowed him have a platform to spread his extremist views.

Sending yourself and your children to heaven as a way of preventing your children from being taken from you (and raised by infidels) is perfectly rational, so long as you accept the position the martyrs go to heaven.

It is not about bravery vs cowardice.

[Octavious]

What the thread is about is whether Trump has abused the word coward, and my argument is that it is very easy to see the actions of this (for want of a better word) man as cowardly, and as such I see no reason at all to consider it a misuse of language.

Did Abu consider himself to be a coward? Who knows? The only person who can answer that is smeared like strawberry jam over a section of some god forsaken back of beyond along with the remains of three innocents who deserved better. I for one couldn't care less what he thought of himself.

[flash2015]

I would suggest that the non cowardly option is the one where you suffer the American legal system and work daily for the rest of your life for whatever minimal gains you can achieve, rather than blowing yourself up and taking 3 kids with you.

That is rather pathetic. Apart from the fact that he was never going to have a trial in the US legal system. Refusing to accept the authority of the US may not make one wise, but I don't see it as cowardly (especially when the US doesn't even claim sovereignty outside of the US...).

You don't see blowing yourself and three kids up as cowardly?

What exactly would fit your description of cowardly?!?

There are many other objectives which can describe this action (e.g. blowing up innocent children with himself I may describe as "monstrous")...but how is it in any way cowardly? Again, here is the American definition of the word from dictionary.com:

noun
a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.
adjective
lacking courage; very fearful or timid. proceeding from or expressive of fear or timidity: a coward cry.

Can you explain to me how his actions match **any** part of this definition? I can't remotely believe that you could suggest, for example, that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was timid or easily intimidated...or that blowing himself up came from fear. That was likely pre-planned if his hideout got overrun.

[flash2015]

You also have to consider his religious views where he might consider death by blowing up making him a martyr where he goes to Islamic heaven. That's why so many suicide bombers exist there compared to other areas and religions.

Are you suggesting that we redefine people who kill or let themselves be killed because they strongly believe that they will get rewarded in the afterlife as cowardly? That would make martyrs of many religions effectively cowards, not just Islamist suicide bombers.

Again, I am not in any way justifying these actions. If anything it is the opposite. I am just arguing that using the word coward or cowardly is the wrong description to be used with these actions.

[Octavious]

I genuinely can't believe that this conversation is happening.

Coward (Cambridge English Dictionary) "a person who is not brave and is too eager to avoid danger, difficulty, or pain"

Abu chose the death of himself and three innocents rather than face the danger of the Americans, and the difficulty and pain that capture would no doubt have resulted in. He is a coward. He could easily be the example of cowardice used to illustrate the definition.

You are more than welcome to continue using whatever definition of the word you choose, but surely you must accept that there are plenty of people who will legitimately see the vile scum as a coward.

[Randomizer]

You also have to consider his religious views where he might consider death by blowing up making him a martyr where he goes to Islamic heaven. That's why so many suicide bombers exist there compared to other areas and religions.

Are you suggesting that we redefine people who kill or let themselves be killed because they strongly believe that they will get rewarded in the afterlife as cowardly? That would make martyrs of many religions effectively cowards, not just Islamist suicide bombers.

Again, I am not in any way justifying these actions. If anything it is the opposite. I am just arguing that using the word coward or cowardly is the wrong description to be used with these actions.

I'm saying in his mind he viewed his actions not as brave or cowardly, but as a religious act that would insure he would go to heaven whereas surrendering would prevent that. Trump's calling the suicide as cowardly was applying his standards to the action.

We know from Trump's own public statements that he considers fighting in a war to be stupid and getting caught is for losers like John McCain.

[orathaic]

What the thread is about is whether Trump has abused the word coward, and my argument is that it is very easy to see the actions of this (for want of a better word) man as cowardly, and as such I see no reason at all to consider it a misuse of language.

Did Abu consider himself to be a coward? Who knows? The only person who can answer that is smeared like strawberry jam over a section of some god forsaken back of beyond along with the remains of three innocents who deserved better. I for one couldn't care less what he thought of himself.

I'm pretty sure the conversation I'm having is whether you (should) consider him a coward. As such we are talking across each other.

[Octavious]

I'm pretty sure the conversation I'm having is whether you (should) consider him a coward. As such we are talking across each other.

We can do that as well if you like. I believe he's a coward for the reasons I suggested Trump might think he's a coward. I do not believe it is impossible for someone to honestly believe he isn't a coward, but I firmly believe that they would be wrong to think so.

[Kingdroid]

I would suggest that the non cowardly option is the one where you suffer the American legal system and work daily for the rest of your life for whatever minimal gains you can achieve, rather than blowing yourself up and taking 3 kids with you.

That is rather pathetic. Apart from the fact that he was never going to have a trial in the US legal system. Refusing to accept the authority of the US may not make one wise, but I don't see it as cowardly (especially when the US doesn't even claim sovereignty outside of the US...).

You don't see blowing yourself and three kids up as cowardly?

What exactly would fit your description of cowardly?!?

I hope you're consistent in believing all soldiers and military to be cowardly, cuz i'm sure the U.S military has blown up more than 3 kids.

[flash2015]

I genuinely can't believe that this conversation is happening.

Coward (Cambridge English Dictionary) "a person who is not brave and is too eager to avoid danger, difficulty, or pain"

Abu chose the death of himself and three innocents rather than face the danger of the Americans, and the difficulty and pain that capture would no doubt have resulted in. He is a coward. He could easily be the example of cowardice used to illustrate the definition.

You are more than welcome to continue using whatever definition of the word you choose, but surely you must accept that there are plenty of people who will legitimately see the vile scum as a coward.

I genuinely can't believe this discussion is happening too. I was expecting a more nuanced discussion, potentially that the lie can be justified because of some patriotic objective...or someone just saying if I didn't like it I should "go back to my own country". I didn't expect someone to try to tell me "black" is "white", that an obviously non-cowardly act is actually cowardly.

What is more dangerous or painful than death? Believing in an afterlife doesn't suddenly mean that if you die for a cause you are a coward. Why would submitting to a regime which he would obviously believe is illegitimate cowardly? For example that would make French rebels that gave their lives in the second world war cowards because they didn't submit to German military justice. If anything the cowardly thing to do would have been submitting and betraying his cause to save his life (again his cause is horribly distorted and evil - but of course he wouldn't think it was). The way "coward" is being used here is almost Orwellian.

I seriously thought you were just taking the p*** when you said the courageous decision would be to suffer the US legal system. I didn't realize that you were serious. What legal process would he be going through? He wasn't going to be read his rights and be allowed to make his case in a court of law. He wasn't going to be tried in front of a jury of his peers. If the US military didn't kill him anyway, he likely would be on his way to Guantanamo never to have contact with the outside world again. The only reason it would make sense for him to be taken would be if he was fearful of death, i.e. this would have been the cowardly option.

In the end all I hear from your explanation is that he is cowardly because Trump says so. I don't know why you repeat that he killed two children as well when he blew himself up as if it meant something. You might as well have said "don't you know he had a beard" as that would be just as relevant. Again it is a horrible, evil thing for him to do, but it isn't cowardice.

I am not sure where this discussion goes from here. Again, I was expecting more out of this.