That Impeachment Thread

[flash2015]

After logging in after a bit of a break, I am surprised (and disappointed) that this thread has not been started yet. I expected some name calling, coup references, Octavious saying it is just "Trump being Trump" and we shouldn't worry etc, etc. What is happening to webdip???

Anyway, so what does everyone think? Note that it is possible to believe Trump should be impeached AND believe that Biden family dealings are kind of shady too or at best show horrible judgement on Joe Biden's part and that Biden is also unfit to be president. The idea though that Biden pressured Ukraine to fire its prosecutor to protect Hunter has been thoroughly debunked (getting rid of the prosecutor meant an investigation of Burisma was more likely, not less).

[orathaic]

The Democrats have decided that it hurts them more to ignore Trump's attack on the Biden family than it hurts them to fail to impeach.

Same as when Nixon attacked the democratic party, and then resigned before he could be impeached.

The message is clear, don't piss with the established political power. For they do not like it.

[flash2015]

@orathaic, so if I understand you correctly you think this is just politics as usual and there isn't a principal at stake here?

I asgue the principal being that the president should not be using the power of the federal government to target political opponents. What makes this worse, is that Trump doesn't see that is wrong in any way (the call was "perfect")...and is continuing to up the ante on this, whether it be asking China to also investigate the Bidens, whether it be him "investigating" the people that worked for Robert Mueller on the Russia probe or "investigating" the origins of the Russia probe. The investigation of the investigation hinges on the idea that Alexander Downer, the former leader of the conservative party of Australia (called the Liberal party to confuse Americans) was a spy for the Clintons which is Shapiro-esque in its stupidity.

[Randomizer]

I like how Pence can say with a straight face that it's perfectly acceptable to investigate the children of former VP Biden without saying we should investigate the children of current president Trump:

Ivana for China influence in granting trademarks.
Ivana shilling her clothing and jewelry products while advising her father.
Son-in-law Jared for selling access to Trump in exchange for investing in Kushner property deals.
Eric and Don, Jr. for hiring illegal aliens to work at their properties including their private gun lodge.

These are all legitimate examples of corruption that aren't protected by presidential immunity.

Trump himself has a long history of lying in public and committing illegal acts until going to court and having to testify under oath. There he will recant because it becomes perjury.

[Octavious]

It's just Trump being Trump

Sorry, I've really not been following the latest storyline in the Trump show. The rugby world cup is on, for God's sake. Priorities, dontchaknow?

Besides which, haven't we already exhausted the impeachment line? I thought it was a none starter because you needed 2/3 of the senate or some nonsense, and you won't get that many Republican rebels?

[Randomizer]

There's a chance that enough Republican senators will think their re-election chances are better with Pence than risk Trump dragging down the ticket. After all its not like Pelosi become president unless Pence gets dragged into the swamp.

[TrPrado]

I've been waiting so long to make a joke on here about Rudy Giuliani saying he's the whistleblower with NO opportunities. What a disappointment it's been.

[orathaic]

@orathaic, so if I understand you correctly you think this is just politics as usual and there isn't a principal at stake here?

<snip>

I mean, yes and no. Some Democrats would have called (and did call) for impeachment far sooner. Over other crimes/potential crimes. I am saying it took a direct attack on the established power, and likely an illegal one, for the Democrats to use that power.

Basically they will not use their political capital for anything else... But I suppose they HAVE to for this, otherwise the risk losing it.

Still, Muslim ban, children seperate from parents, reallocating military money for a border wall, ICE raids... There are a loads of objectionable things, and the Mueller report took its sweet ass time... But surely they could have investigated sooner. They could have looked into Trump's taxes, investigated his children's business dealing... There are many possible crimes the Democrats just ignored.

Still, I believe the best comment on this comes from twitter.

Or at least it would be if that Monica Lewinsky tweet wasn't fake.

[orathaic]

OK, Stormy can have this one: https://twitter.com/StormyDaniels/statu ... 01184?s=09

[Randomizer]

https://time.com/5692947/mike-pence-impeachment/

It's possible we might get a two-fer with Pence being impeached for Trump's actions.

Also tax cheat Trump might have had a political appointee interfere with his tax audits. Lots of people are saying that Trump has filed false returns to avoid paying millions of dollars in taxes. Claiming loans that never had any interest paid on them to hide realized capital gains. Profits from doing Russian money laundering.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/politics ... index.html

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... ent=safari

[flash2015]

It's just Trump being Trump

Sorry, I've really not been following the latest storyline in the Trump show. The rugby world cup is on, for God's sake. Priorities, dontchaknow?

Besides which, haven't we already exhausted the impeachment line? I thought it was a none starter because you needed 2/3 of the senate or some nonsense, and you won't get that many Republican rebels?

I think what makes it different this time, unlike the Russia probe, it looks like this time they will be able to prove it. Whilst there were a few noisy commenters and congresspeople before talking impeachment, this time due to the strength of the claims the democratic leadership has now decided to support it and the democrats have the numbers in the House to officially start the investigation. They haven't officially had the vote yet because the House doesn't sit again until next Monday.

There is an argument being brought up now by some more sane Republicans who aren't out in conspiracy-land that yes its bad, but it isn't bad enough to remove him from office. This is somewhat the same argument the Democrats made in 1998 with Bill Clinton. But this I would argue is much more serious than the Clinton situation...and Trump is going to keep pushing the envelope. He largely ignores the law when he feels like it. Where do you draw the line? If this isn't worthy of impeachment, what would Trump have to do to finally remove him from office?

[Randomizer]

I liked the reason this is different is the whistleblower wrote a short, clear, and to the point complaint that highlighted what Trump did that was illegal and left the classified material to one attachment so the public could understand what was wrong. Compared to the two volume Mueller report that was written in legalese and left the reader having to wade through pages of material.

[orathaic]

Mueller explicitly said he was of the opinion that the Don could not indict a sitting president (and that impeachment was the constitutional way to address such crimes).

Also, tax probe at the state level : https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/nyre ... vance.html

[Randomizer]

Mueller explicitly state that the Justice Department's legal consul had already issued a legal opinion that a sitting president could not be indicted for federal charges. He did not challenge whether this opinion was valid and it hasn't faced a court test.

Tax probe ruling has that the president's immunity doesn't extend to other people that could be criminally charge from information in the tax returns. Since Clinton being sued in state court by Paula Jones was allowed for civil cases, the presidential immunity for actions taken before becoming president in criminal cases may not exist, but the president being charged may or may not happen so until that occurs, there is not blanket immunity.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/07/politics ... index.html

[Randomizer]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/15/politics ... index.html

The Democrats made Trump do it. Instead of the Devil, the Democrats somehow controlled Trump to make the insane decision to pull troops out of Syria and green light the Turkish invasion. Next the Democrats made Trump start the trade war, cheat on his taxes, and caused terrorists to fly planes into buildings on 9/11.

[Fluminator]

Is it going to happen in time for Pence to become president?

[Randomizer]

Is it going to happen in time for Pence to become president?

There is the possibility that depending on when and what Pence knows about the call and "quid pro quo" that he could be impeached at the same time. We could see President Pelosi.

[Fluminator]

I'm confused why I'm so uninterested in this one, when I was interested in the Russian impeachment stuff. Maybe Ukraine is just less interesting than Russia? Maybe I've finally grown bored of all Trump drama.

[Fluminator]

Maybe the premise of "Trump secretly working with Putin to hack the election" was a lot more interesting to look into.
This is just a phone call where Trump asked Ukraine to look into Biden.

[Randomizer]

Trump's allies are using Side Show Bob's murder defense:
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-simpsons-s ... 38861.html

Trump and company are too incompetent to commit a crime. You can't impeach over attempts to subvert the US Constitution. Just because Trump tried to repeatedly break the law, lie about it, and intimidate witnesses while they testify, he isn't guilty of anything.

Meanwhile the White House keeps issuing fake reports that they can't even support with the fake transcripts of calls to the Ukrainian president. Consider that the transcripts literally say that they aren't verbatim, you would think that the White House could keep their lies straight and use information in their fake transcripts.

https://news.yahoo.com/transcript-shows ... 19895.html