MAFIA 49 -Avengers "Re-release"- GAME THREAD [HIDDEN]

[foodcoats]

Thinking about it, how the hell is my question "who would you kill if you were mafia" a PR hunt?

Explain that one for me Jamie.

Because you could have asked "who seems the most town?" Or you could have asked "who is at the greatest risk of NK?".

But your phrasing of your question was such that it may reveal a lot about how willing each person is to answer.

Let me develop this further.

Worcej asked: " If you were Mafia, who would you NightKill?"

Mafia usually want to kill town PRs.

So if you're town and answer honestly, YOU'D BE TELLING WORCEJ YOUR STRONGEST TOWN PR READ.

If you're town and answer dishonestly, YOU MIGHT BE A TOWN PR DEFLECTING FROM YOUR REAL ROLE.

If you're scum, you'd answer dishonestly to obfuscate the fact you know who isn't mafia.

Worcej's request has much more relevance as a SCUM MOTIVATED gambit than a townie request for information.

Prove me wrong.

I also found it weird because of this, but I think it’s more likely worcej reaction testing people. I think you’re both town right now from this interaction.

[e.m.c^42]

Catching up, catching up, don't expect much of anything from here until tomorrow lol, going to blatantly pull the vaguely scummy not-here card for a bit longer

sorry

[Nephthys]

##Vote bozo

This was useful yes and I intended to bring it up when relevant. This was also used to success last game although both times the game has progressed significantly than it currently has. There is little point in doing it now and it is the definition of content for the sake of content

Yikes that wording was sloppy

- Yes its useful
- Its only useful later
- Bringing it up now is terrible play

This seems in stark contradiction to your earlier complaint that webdipmaf is toxic egotistical and uncooperative. I need to update my reads in the morning but I’m on team bozo regarding this strategy. Why do you think it is bad play? What is better play?

What's contradictory? I stated I think it's bad and explained how I think it would be better used. I haven't personally attacked him or anything?

[damo666]

##VOTE BOZO

His latest post tipped the balance for me.

What about it specifically?

I agree with him about some of the people he mentioned (not you), but I gave reasons above for my thoughts. His posts are all shaped like this. And I don't see any "puzzle solving" coming. Just distraction under the guise of identifying people.

It's D1. You cannot "puzzle solve" without data.

[EspressoPatronum]

Macro Reads List:

Jamie - every time I think Jamie is scummy, he's actually town. I think he's scummy this game, so he's probably actually town.

What have I done this game so far that strikes you as scummy?

You entered the game swinging, and I really disliked your post calling out worcej for asking about who ppl would kill as maf.

It was clear to me that worcej was asking it to see if ppl would give honest or copout answers. Calling it PR fishing then voting him looks like you were purposely misconstruing the purpose of getting a scumread on him.

[damo666]

OK, so...last night brainbomb messaged me at a really bad time and I responded badly (sick and kids bedtime was awful). But then while reading the thread I decided: I have no fucking clue the norms and inside meanings of everything people were saying in the opening comments. I also have no clue how the game changes when scum know who each other are in D1 AND CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER OFFLINE. This is soooo different than the game I normally play, I realized I couldn't approach it the same.

Townslip or scumcraft?

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't think I've ever been hit by a 3x OMGUS before, but there's a first for everything.

Fox might as well have made a neon sign confirming that he was priming me and the other lurkers for a scumread.

[damo666]

damo666 = T. I don't have a good read. Just a few posts. Got in early. Said almost nothing except about his relationship to players in the past games. It actually really put me off. But he could just be busy, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum trying to not appear to be lurking, but really saying nothing at all early and then disappearing.

@Bunny fyi I usually don't post much D1 because there is not much to comment on. It's mostly spurious nonsense.

[EspressoPatronum]

my advice to you bunny would be to be careful how you format.
yoire curently lynching yourself. and foodcoats convieniently made the same error

Whoa how did that happen?
[...]

I believe it happens sometimes when you quote someone else's vote.

[EspressoPatronum]

Btw, I'm online for the next hour or so. I'll be catching up but can engage realtime in between catchup posts.

[Nephthys]

Btw, I'm online for the next hour or so. I'll be catching up but can engage realtime in between catchup posts.

Ok then, how bout we start with analysing your wagon at its peak

EspressoPatronum (5) Foxcastle Vaporwave KalelChase xorxes brainbomb Nephthys

How many scum do you think were on you and who do you suspect?

[EspressoPatronum]

the reason I thought he was softing as hulk was the releat use of the sick emoji
the jekyll and hyde posting style of appearing bipolar
the threat to stomp people
the mention of gladiators, hulk was a gladiator in Ragnarok, the film just before infinity war.

contrived to the nth degree

[...]

So now I'm thinking Vapor probably is a VT, as people claiming VT usually end up being VT. Claiming VT is still bad for town though. If you are a VT you should not be so desperate to save yourself that you need to claim, the claim does not really give town any info that town needs to have, and it does give scum info that they want to have, so bad all around.

Hmm, I remember scum!you giving me a hard time in Ace Attorney about claims despite being in a judge 1v1 against et.

Claiming VT absolutely gives info to town. As I wrote in Ace Attorney, I think town should always lynch, and sometimes it's better to lynch someone who's claimed VT over someone who may end up claiming a PR.

I take your point that VT claims are dangerous, however, as PRs have less cover. I disagree strongly that VT claims give no information to town.

[EspressoPatronum]

OK then, I'm going to ##VOTE Espresso

I'm really sad because we were scumbuddies in the minimafia game and did great together, and I still feel some camaraderie towards EP because of that, but I think he is scum this time. This reads list is very empty, too many reads to say very little. Too manys "time will tell". Reads I especially dislike: bozo, rivera, Fox.

I see we have the gaslighting xorxes this game. Welcome back, old friend.

Two points in response:
1. How full did you expect the first half of D1 reads to be? Most people can't muster up more than like 5 lines total, and I think you're purposely ignoring the fact that this is a MACRO reads list. In other words, it's a reads list based on the game as a whole, rather than a more conventional reads list based on either individual interactions (micro) or a combination of micro/macro.

2. Per bb's suggestion, I think getting everyone's reads out before EOD is a great idea. It'll help lock scum into positions +/ form a basis for progression of reads. We can also do something similar to bozo's top 5 scum reads list in the apocalypse game, which was wildly accurate but poorly acted on.

Questions for you:
A. Specifically, why do you think bozo is scum?

B. Can you please post a reads list?

[EspressoPatronum]

EspressoPatronum
Day-1 40:40
page 11 / orig I got half way through. My impressions thus far:

Liking bozo a lot. I'll also echo darg's post -- I'm interested to see if bozo has any ideas on the mechanics of the game. We might have stood a better chance in the apocalypse/animal game.

##vote Vaporwave. He seems really different from my past games with him.

##Vote Espresso

You based your vote on my original catchup post but not on my reads list like the others. Why?

[EspressoPatronum]

EspressoPatronum
Day-1 40:40
page 11 / orig I got half way through. My impressions thus far:

Liking bozo a lot. I'll also echo darg's post -- I'm interested to see if bozo has any ideas on the mechanics of the game. We might have stood a better chance in the apocalypse/animal game.

##vote Vaporwave. He seems really different from my past games with him.

##Vote Espresso

Could you explain this more to me. I'm not following the logic of why everyone is piling on Espresso

Stole the words right from under me.

Another town ping on Bunny.

[EspressoPatronum]

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... soPatronum


Compare the two day 1s.

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... soPatronum


same use of exclamation. kinda hard to tell any difference.
16 posts this game
36 posts in m47

I dont see a ton of difference tbh.
but in m47 espresso kept saying to me that I was making a mistake and that it wasnt him.

[snipped quote from EP]

espresso defended himself very hard in m47 when pushed.

Thanks for doing the due diligence of a meta dive. I appreciate it.

I was particularly worried about your read on me in m47 for two reasons:
1. You were the one pushing me. If I could convince you I was town, the push would die.
2. I recall that you kept coming back to me + I was worried you were going to tunnel.

Your vote on me in this game is different on both accounts, as the push on me came from the 3x OMGUS, and I think this is the first time you've mentioned me. It's more useful here to direct you to the clearly scummy behaviour of Fox and the strange behaviour from Vapor.

Looking to Fox, and as I've stated earlier, his initial lurker callout could easily be a scum tool to appear busy. It also allowed him a narrative to vote me after scumreading him for it.

Looking to Vapor, I'm pretty sure everyone has noted his strange behaviour. The strangest part for to me though is his read of me. Vapor normally townreads me (m1007 and M47 I think), and even went so far as to 'super townread' me or something like that. He's been scumreading me from the beginning and that's a huge red flag. As stated in my reads post, however, he's probably best to leave alone for a day or two to see if scum or 3p picks him off. If he's still alive, he's probably scum or 3p.

I dont have much to say on Kalel other than he voted me out of annoyance for calling him out on an attention-seeking entrance.


@brain - what's your read on xorxes?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Espresso, whats there to love in the 5 brief posts from our dear bozo?

He started off early by analyzing the votes on Vapor. I don't recall town!bozo ever joking very much + this is consistent with his past play.

town!bozo doesn't let one word of mine go unchallenged, whether I'm town or scum, it's extremely annoying. This game I haven't even noticed he's here yet.

He lurked pretty hard in the early stages of one of m46 or m47 - I can't remember. He was town in both. I've successfully used this type of early game meta before -- see my teacon D1 townread in Ace Attorney.

Regarding bozo, I think you're confusing his prodding style with his mid/lategame play and/or his play in mini mafia. Most of bozo's big games start off as unremarkable D1s / D2s, but then he comes in clutch later.

In m47, for instance, he started with the massclaim idea and didn't do much besides that. By the endgame, he singlehandedly towncased me for everyone else + helped form a town block that almost helped us come back.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Jamie
I see what you purport... I don't think worcej is pr-hunting, but his question gives, perhaps, scum places to make their NK more confusing to town.

Thinking about it, how the hell is my question "who would you kill if you were mafia" a PR hunt?

Explain that one for me Jamie.

Because you could have asked "who seems the most town?" Or you could have asked "who is at the greatest risk of NK?".

Jamie... I disagree with most of what you say, but I've learned that doesn't necessarily mean you're scum.

Consider this honestly: if worcej had asked the question in any one of your suggested ways, could you see yourself calling him out for PR fishing in roughly the same way?

Because I can picture it clearly.

But your phrasing of your question was such that it may reveal a lot about how willing each person is to answer.

That's the point!

[EspressoPatronum]

Are you implying Vapor is your teammate?

Was this a serious question, xorxes?

Why wouldn't it be? Or why would you doubt it was serious?

In what world would he ever say yes to this question?

It was so clearly a useless and disingenuous question that I couldn't believe you were serious.

[EspressoPatronum]

Macro Reads List:
NB - if I miss anyone, consider them null.
Town
Brain - consistent with his town play (erratic votes, high post count, questioning ppl's motives). Furthering discussion.

Kitsune - getting earnest noob vibes from him, but he's still trying to figure things out.

Townlean
Bozo - I liked his opening but he hasn't said a lot more since then. Bozo isn't usually very active in the early days, so I'm not expecting a ton of posts from him until later. His activity in the mid/lategame should be telling.

Worcej - his alignment should be obvious by the late game. For now, his prodding looks good.

BunnyGo - getting good beginner vibes from him, too.

Jamie - every time I think Jamie is scummy, he's actually town. I think he's scummy this game, so he's probably actually town.

Null
Rdr - he's usually a lot more active in the early game

Xorxes - he's playing a little different than normal, but it's possibly because of his recent scum games.

ND - the persona is pretty weird. It'll be easier to sort him once he starts playing normally.

Vapour* - Vapour is definitely acting strange. Some of his posts give the survivalist vibe, but then later posts say he's fine with dying. Imo, he's either a scum or a PR. If he's still alive in a few days, we lynch.

Scumlean
Darg - nice posts without much substance.

Scum
Fox - lurker calling out lurkers. Easy way for scum to generate content without much effort
EMC - I recall seeing a bunch of his posts but nothing stood out. Seems like he's playing under the radar.
Kalal - really disliked his entry posts. It looks like he was trying to have an attention-seeking entrance

@Xorxes putting the reads here so I can review them (on my phone rn) and give my feedback, although really not sure half a dozen face to face Werewolf games with friends I largely died very early in are going to help me here.

Oh and by “we” I meant town sorry. I am getting that read from you... so I guess I am starting to catch on? That’s neat.

Brain: I don’t know how Brain “normally plays”, but I agree Espresso seems to have nailed how he’s playing and I get a good town vibe from him. Broadly agree.

Kitsune: Correct in all relevant details. Looking at this from outside my own head I’d probably put me in the Townlean box as I’m realizing confusion tends to help the mafia more than it does the town, but I’m giving myself enough credit to understand that some confusion is inevitable at this point.

BunnyGo: I don’t know. Tend to give a newbie credit for being that new, and I like his conviction is refusing to vote to lynch before we know something more. Tend to townlean here, but he’s also been inadvertently promoting confusion by playing against existing community meta, so could believe the other as well.

Other Townlean: I don’t know enough about how these three play to know if this is justified. Leaning towards Town for Worcej as well due to his prodding actions, but trying to keep a low profile as well. Possible SK? I don’t know, but if he steps up his game D2 and calls out someone new will be interesting.

Xorxes: As I mentioned, I get a solid investigative town read from you. Could be coloured in his eyes by whatever history you have from previous games mind you, but otherwise I don’t see the null.

Other null: I don’t really get a strong vibe off these players so... I guess? Sure? Not strong reasons I feel, but to basically say “I don’t know” I don’t think you’d need them.

Darg: I didn’t enjoy being his focus, but he seems to be trying to push this investigation too. Townlean vibe for me, would need a better explanation from someone to see how he’s scum.

Fox: I don’t know. Could be right, if we’re looking at the second heuristic again and see him as trying to blend in, but calling out inactivity seems more like investigation by his own criteria. I’m feeling null over scum.

EMC: I don’t know his usual playing style. Would need to see more posts from him before I could judge since it could still just be poor availability. Maaaaybe scumlean, but maybe null or a town player trying to keep a low profile too.

Kalel: I think I mentioned earlier, I get a zealous newcomer vibe off him. I suppose he’s a SK candidate too, but I’d prefer to put him in the Townlean box until or unless he incriminates himself.

ExpressoPatronum: I don’t agree with all his conclusions (I guess I’m a little less trigger happy) but I read him as mistaken rather than malicious. And hey, maybe he’s in a whole other wavelength I’m not tuned in enough to get yet. I’m prepared to be convinced he’s scum, but I don’t see it yet myself.

This is a great reads list.

Might I suggest adding it into a format of something like the list below (ofc with actual words and not gibberish)? It'll help people categorize how you read everyone.

Example formatting:
TOWN:
Aaaa - akhgdjhfgsd
Bbbb - akhdfksjdfh
Cccc - ksdfhjksjbdf

NULL:
Ddddd - dkjfhgkjdfh
Eeeee - skjdghkjhs
Fffff - skjdghjfhg

SCUM
Ggggg - ,msdjkdhf
Hhhh - ,sdklf