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Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 10:52 pm
by Jamiet99uk
If you're an American and you voted for Donald Trump:
WHY?
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 6:15 am
by flash2015
After the election a pollster for Democrats, blueprint2024.com, polled swing voters for their most important issues. The article is here:
https://blueprint2024.com/polling/why-trump-reasons-11-8/
To summarize here is the table from the article showing issues by importance:
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:28 am
by Octavious
It's an interesting list, and regardless of where you stand on the Hamas issue it's notable and a little depressing that it ranks so low in terms of importance.
One wonders how far down Ukraine would be. Now that Biden has lost even the tattered remnants of the plot and has given the green light for firing American missiles into Russia (and the supply of vast numbers of weapons so abhorrent they're illegal throughout the civilised world), you'd hope that this would be at least mid table... but probably not.
Biden is probably the worst president in my lifetime, and that's up against some pretty stiff competition. Kamala was his second in command. On the good ship Fuck Up she was very much at the wheel. The only reason her defeat wasn't a certainty from day one was that her opposition was Trump, and to give Trump credit his political abilities seem to have improved over the last decade
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 11:12 pm
by Lord Aragon
To save democracy . . . Constitutional democracy, that is.
When Elizabeth Willing Powel asked Benjamin Franklin at the conclusion of the Constitutional Convention on September 17,1787 : "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?", he replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.” Disregarding Nancy Pelosi's perversion of that famous reply, this election was about preserving our constitutional republic--Electoral College and all.
It's time to roll back the power of the administrative state--the morass of unelected bureaucrats and so-called experts who rule by regulatory fiat and inertia, and return power AND RESPONSIBILITY to our elected officials (the president and Congress alike), and to return greater say (i.e., power) TO THE PEOPLE, by divesting the Federal Government of powers that should be returned to the States and local authorities (e.g., public education).
Hopefully, a new dawn of freedom is breaking to wake America up.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:35 pm
by Jamiet99uk
Lord Aragon wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 11:12 pm
To save democracy . . . Constitutional democracy, that is.
When Elizabeth Willing Powel asked Benjamin Franklin at the conclusion of the Constitutional Convention on September 17,1787 : "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?", he replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.” Disregarding Nancy Pelosi's perversion of that famous reply, this election was about preserving our constitutional republic--Electoral College and all.
It's time to roll back the power of the administrative state--the morass of unelected bureaucrats and so-called experts who rule by regulatory fiat and inertia, and return power AND RESPONSIBILITY to our elected officials (the president and Congress alike), and to return greater say (i.e., power) TO THE PEOPLE, by divesting the Federal Government of powers that should be returned to the States and local authorities (e.g., public education).
Hopefully, a new dawn of freedom is breaking to wake America up.
Why do you think that Trump will do any of that?
So far he is just promising Government jobs to his cronies and people who have given him money.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:27 pm
by brainbomb
I didnt
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 2:35 am
by Jamiet99uk
According to Laurence Britt there are 14 characteristics of fascism. Other theorists disagree on the exact configuration, but the point remains. Trump satisfies ALL 14 metrics.
1) Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Yep, Trump and MAGA have that. They display flags, they talk about how America is the best. They insist the US is the best country in the world.
2) Disdain for the importance of human rights. Yep, Trump’s disregard for abortion rights, LGBTQ rights, and so on. (Overturning Roe v Wade, plenty of executive action to strip LGBTQ rights, the Muslim ban, and so much much more.)
3) Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Yes, again. Trump others immigrants — both documented and undocumented. And attacks e.g. trans and queer persons as causing moral degradation; that they are predators; criminals; and so on.
4) The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Yep, believes that he should be able to direct the military on US soil.
5) Rampant sexism. Yep, quite literally found liable for sexual assault. Constantly makes sexist remarks. Famously, ‘grab em by the p*ssy.’
6) A controlled mass media. FOX is certainly a propaganda machine, but the President can exercise no direct influence over media. But he has kicked networks out of White House coverage that he disagrees with. Has suggested curtailing free speech rights by removing New York Times v. Sullivan. Regularly calls coverage he disagrees with ‘fake news.’ Blocked journalists on Twitter (1st amendment violation). Etc.
7) Obsession with national security. Again, yes. China is the ‘bad’ guy in a large amount of his rhetoric. Believes that he can settle intentional wars.
8 ) Religion and ruling elite tied together. Again, yes. Whilst he himself might not be very religious, he’s allied himself with the Christian right and far-right. He has put them in positions of power, aided and colluded with them on policy, and so on.
9) Power of corporations protected. Yep, wants to remove regulatory bodies (anti-EPA, for instance). Provide tax cuts. And so on. E.g. look at his close relationship with heads of corporations who he is integrating into his government as we speak.
10) Power of labour suppressed or eliminated. Well-known to not be a supporter of unions. Has famously stiffed workers where possible.
11) Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Consistently rejects any expert testimony or evidence with which he disagrees, even though he is not a subject matter expert. This is also extremely popular on the right: ‘well, that’s just your opinion.’ Famously, evidence is not like opinion, nor is expert opinion similar to lay opinion.
12) Obsession with crime and punishment. Obviously — talks about it all the time at his rallies, especially blaming immigrants. Propagates the idea that crime is rampant and we need to be tough. Whilst crime has spiked in some domains, it remains on the whole, much lower than it was in the past.
13) Rampant cronyism and corruption. His government and appointees are effectively all loyalists, many of which have no experience in running their respective departments. Loyalty in exchange for positions of power.
14) Fraudulent elections. Lied about election integrity, and falsely asserted wildly incorrect things about the 2020 election.
Trump is a fascist.
Trump supporters are fascists.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 11:24 am
by learnedSloth
Telling Trump voters so probably doesn't help them come here to explain why they voted him
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 11:41 am
by flash2015
I had to comment on this part:
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 2:35 am
1) Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Yep, Trump and MAGA have that. They display flags, they talk about how America is the best. They insist the US is the best country in the world.
What planet have you been living on for the past few decades? Have you never heard of the phrase "American exceptionalism"? Americans have traditionally believed they live in the very best country on the planet.
It is only a recent thing where some people on the left have instead been promoting the crazy idea that the US is actually one of the worst countries in the world, that it is a racist/sexist/homophobic human rights hellhole (and it is all the fault of the evil "cis het white men"). Of course this narrative is utterly insane. The rhetoric of Trump is at least in part a reaction to the emergence of this narrative.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 2:33 pm
by Esquire Bertissimmo
As someone in Canada who is appalled by Trump's election, it was interesting to see Jamie's list and how much of it I disagreed with.
#5 should have grossed out more Americans on principle. #14 genuinely strikes me as totally beyond the pale and I'm profoundly confused why so few Americans seem to care.
Yet I would say every other point on that rather long list is borderline hysterical and serves as a cheap way to sidestep genuine policy disagreements between the left and right on foreign policy, abortion, immigration, crime, etc.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 5:45 pm
by kingofthepirates
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 2:35 am
Trump is a fascist.
Trump supporters are fascists.
First statement is lukewarm. Confirmation bias is a dangerous thing, and I think some of your points may overlook counter arguments. For example, number 7 is pretty wildly out of place. There are very real concerns with China, and portraying them as a 'bad guy' in various contexts is pretty fair. The last sentence in number 7 is imo normal Trump hyperbole/delusion. I'll also add that several points can equally be applied to the left, or at least certain left candidates (ex. many on the left have used trump and his supports as scapegoats/ enemies).
Hard disagree point 2. Some of them certainly, but not all. Many Trump supporters are less Trump fans, and more anti-democrat/anti-Harris for various reasons. something something lesser evil, something something the dems messed up.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 6:43 pm
by yavuzovic
kingofthepirates wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 5:45 pm
Many Trump supporters are less Trump fans, and more anti-democrat/anti-Harris for various reasons. something something lesser evil, something something the dems messed up.
Wasn't it the same when Biden won though? Who seriously was a Biden fan?
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 8:21 pm
by CaptainFritz28
It seems that's how it's been for a while now.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 8:45 pm
by CaptainFritz28
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 2:35 am
According to Laurence Britt there are 14 characteristics of fascism. Other theorists disagree on the exact configuration, but the point remains. Trump satisfies ALL 14 metrics.
1) Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Yep, Trump and MAGA have that. They display flags, they talk about how America is the best. They insist the US is the best country in the world.
2) Disdain for the importance of human rights. Yep, Trump’s disregard for abortion rights, LGBTQ rights, and so on. (Overturning Roe v Wade, plenty of executive action to strip LGBTQ rights, the Muslim ban, and so much much more.)
3) Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Yes, again. Trump others immigrants — both documented and undocumented. And attacks e.g. trans and queer persons as causing moral degradation; that they are predators; criminals; and so on.
4) The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Yep, believes that he should be able to direct the military on US soil.
5) Rampant sexism. Yep, quite literally found liable for sexual assault. Constantly makes sexist remarks. Famously, ‘grab em by the p*ssy.’
6) A controlled mass media. FOX is certainly a propaganda machine, but the President can exercise no direct influence over media. But he has kicked networks out of White House coverage that he disagrees with. Has suggested curtailing free speech rights by removing New York Times v. Sullivan. Regularly calls coverage he disagrees with ‘fake news.’ Blocked journalists on Twitter (1st amendment violation). Etc.
7) Obsession with national security. Again, yes. China is the ‘bad’ guy in a large amount of his rhetoric. Believes that he can settle intentional wars.
8 ) Religion and ruling elite tied together. Again, yes. Whilst he himself might not be very religious, he’s allied himself with the Christian right and far-right. He has put them in positions of power, aided and colluded with them on policy, and so on.
9) Power of corporations protected. Yep, wants to remove regulatory bodies (anti-EPA, for instance). Provide tax cuts. And so on. E.g. look at his close relationship with heads of corporations who he is integrating into his government as we speak.
10) Power of labour suppressed or eliminated. Well-known to not be a supporter of unions. Has famously stiffed workers where possible.
11) Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Consistently rejects any expert testimony or evidence with which he disagrees, even though he is not a subject matter expert. This is also extremely popular on the right: ‘well, that’s just your opinion.’ Famously, evidence is not like opinion, nor is expert opinion similar to lay opinion.
12) Obsession with crime and punishment. Obviously — talks about it all the time at his rallies, especially blaming immigrants. Propagates the idea that crime is rampant and we need to be tough. Whilst crime has spiked in some domains, it remains on the whole, much lower than it was in the past.
13) Rampant cronyism and corruption. His government and appointees are effectively all loyalists, many of which have no experience in running their respective departments. Loyalty in exchange for positions of power.
14) Fraudulent elections. Lied about election integrity, and falsely asserted wildly incorrect things about the 2020 election.
Trump is a fascist.
Trump supporters are fascists.
1) They like their country and think it's the best. (Also, did you really just list displaying the American flag as a reason not to vote for an American politician?)
2) They don't believe that the ability to kill children before they are born or encourage children to perform irreversible surgeries on a whim are human rights.
3) They disagree with people and thus unify around opposing those principles... because that's what a political party does. If you can look at the democratic party and say that they don't identify "MAGA Republicans" (an ever broadening term) as enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, then you merely show your bias. (Sidenote: Trump has publicly shown support for legal [what you call documented] immigration, just as a nitpick.)
4) The belief that the military should be stronger than other militaries and used to keep people well defended.
5) Ah yes, the fellow that recently appointed the first female chief of staff ever. He must really hate women if he puts them in positions of power like that.
6) This has been common practice for a long time, and did not decrease in frequency with Biden's term. It's a non-unique argument, and yeah I don't like it but I see it happen less with him than on the other side. (Although I tend to avoid major media publications as a first source for news regardless, because they're all very biased.)
7) Because national security is important, maybe? And he's done an incredible job settling foreign conflicts, if anything that's one of his best traits.
8) He agrees with certain people on certain principles and therefore tries to get them to places where they are influential over that area of political principle. Ooh so scary that he would dare support people he agrees with!
9) This just comes down to your economic perspective. You think communism is a good idea. I think a free market is a good idea. Trump closer supports a free market than communism.
10) Same as #9, although I've not researched this enough to verify or debunk your claims here.
11) I've not seen this to be true, and even if it were this would be again a non-unique argument.
12) Wants crime to be lower. How dare he!
13) Appoints people who he agrees with and who agree with him... perhaps because that's his job? To appoint people who he thinks will best serve their position, and thus the people who align most closely with how he believes things should be done? That's how presidential appointees have always worked.
14) I think he took it much too far, but it ought to have been looked into much more than it was.
Regarding your final remarks, perhaps you could define, in your own words, what you believe fascism is exactly?
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 8:46 pm
by CaptainFritz28
Also I apologize for my grammar in that last post, I changed from third to second person strangely, please overlook.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 2:47 am
by kingofthepirates
CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 8:45 pm
8) He agrees with certain people on certain principles and therefore tries to get them to places where they are influential over that area of political principle. Ooh so scary that he would dare support people he agrees with!
to be fair, I feel several of his picks are pretty nonsensical. I think(? this was heard from friends who know more about this than I do, but still not sure if its fact) RFK jr will be the first non MD Secretary of Health and Human Services, and as an anti-vaxer I don't like him as the pick here. Just one specific example ofc, but still a potentially dangerous one (anti-vax talk in a place where science and vaccines are very important? yeah uhhh personally no thanks). Also Elon Musk as gov efficiency after the absolute mess that is X/twitter seems sketchy...
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 4:10 am
by Spartaculous
kingofthepirates wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 2:47 am
I think(? this was heard from friends who know more about this than I do, but still not sure if its fact) RFK jr will be the first non MD Secretary of Health and Human Services
I just looked this up; it doesn't seem to be true. The current secretary of HHS is Xavier Becerra, whose background is in law.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:50 am
by CaptainFritz28
kingofthepirates wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 2:47 am
CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 8:45 pm
8) He agrees with certain people on certain principles and therefore tries to get them to places where they are influential over that area of political principle. Ooh so scary that he would dare support people he agrees with!
to be fair, I feel several of his picks are pretty nonsensical. I think(? this was heard from friends who know more about this than I do, but still not sure if its fact) RFK jr will be the first non MD Secretary of Health and Human Services, and as an anti-vaxer I don't like him as the pick here. Just one specific example ofc, but still a potentially dangerous one (anti-vax talk in a place where science and vaccines are very important? yeah uhhh personally no thanks). Also Elon Musk as gov efficiency after the absolute mess that is X/twitter seems sketchy...
I'm curious to see if the picks he's made work well together or all end up infighting amongst each other and getting nothing done. You make a good point, though. However, neither of those seem particularly religious, which is what Jamie was talking about.
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:51 am
by brainbomb
flash2015 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 11:41 am
I had to comment on this part:
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2024 2:35 am
1) Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Yep, Trump and MAGA have that. They display flags, they talk about how America is the best. They insist the US is the best country in the world.
What planet have you been living on for the past few decades? Have you never heard of the phrase "American exceptionalism"? Americans have traditionally believed they live in the very best country on the planet.
It is only a recent thing where some people on the left have instead been promoting the crazy idea that the US is actually one of the worst countries in the world, that it is a racist/sexist/homophobic human rights hellhole (and it is all the fault of the evil "cis het white men"). Of course this narrative is utterly insane. The rhetoric of Trump is at least in part a reaction to the emergence of this narrative.
Its almost like the democrats wanna make america great again because its such a shithole, oh woops wrong party
Re: Why did you vote for Trump?
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:52 am
by brainbomb
But seriously get off the planet with that statement bud. Republicans have been running on that this country sucks for 16 years - and propping up orange fuckboy as its savior from itself this whole time.