Gaza genocide estimated at over 5% of the civilian population

[Jamiet99uk]

Israel has murdered nearly 119,000 Palestinians since October 2023, says a new estimate from US doctors.

99 US doctors and medical workers who volunteered in Gaza have written to Biden claiming the death toll is at least 118,908. This is around 5.5% of Gaza's population at the start of the current genocide.

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Israel may have directly killed about 40,000 people in Gaza. We can't be certain, since the best source is Gaza’s own health ministry, but it’s safe to say the number is in the tens of thousands. The Lancet study linked in your article suggests that, for modern wars in low-income areas like Gaza, indirect deaths—those caused by starvation, lack of healthcare, and poor living conditions—are often 3 to 15 times higher than direct deaths. The Lancet article goes further than the letter, suggesting that, at a conservative 4:1 ratio, the death toll would be closer to 8%.

The numbers make sense, but the harder question is: who's responsible for these indirect deaths? Germany lost about 10% of its population during World War II, not counting Holocaust victims. Most were combatants killed by Allied forces, but many civilians died from starvation, illness, and the breakdown of infrastructure. Should the Allies bear responsibility for all those deaths, or does some of the blame fall on the Nazi regime that started the war and mismanaged the country? In my view it's a shared responsibility.

This same logic can apply to Gaza. Israel ought to be held responsible for its war crimes. Targeting civilian infrastructure and restricting essential supplies clearly exacerbates civilian suffering and contributes to the high number of indirect deaths.

However, Hamas also shares some responsibility. By embedding its operations within civilian areas, launching attacks, and refusing to engage in meaningful ceasefire discussions, Hamas has escalated the conflict and worsened the conditions that lead to indirect deaths. And, of course, Hamas is a proxy of Iran, which has launched further assaults on Israel since the war started via the Houthis, Hezbollah, and now from its own soil.

It's hard to bring up these nuances without feeling like I'm making excuses for Israel, which has behaved criminally in Gaza. But failing to present Hamas' role in this feels like making excuses for an Iran-backed coalition whose aim is to expel or kill every Jew in the Middle East.

[Jamiet99uk]

Hamas has a role, sure, but only one side is carrying out a campaign of genocide which is designed to kill tens of thousands of civilians and reduce every single building in the Gaza strip to rubble.

The mass murder of civilians, including large numbers of children, is taking place on a horrifying scale and Israel is now primarily responsible for that. The USA and UK are also complicit in continuing to supply Israel with arms and ammunition in large quantities. Instead we should be blockading and sanctioning Israel and seeking to arrest its leaders.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Iran and its proxies are engaged in a campaign of genocide against Israelis. The West will keep arming Israel despite its war crimes because otherwise it risks allowing Iran to achieve this goal. No one is going to arrest the Ayatollah or the leaders of Hamas, Hizbollah, and the Houthis, and so Israel has taken the matter into its own hands.

[Jamiet99uk]

Two genocides don't a make a right.

[Jamiet99uk]

Plus, only one of these genocides is actually occurring.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Plus, only one of these genocides is actually occurring.

Because Israel competently defends itself at an enormous cost, knowing that most of the world is ultimately okay with a status quo that means they face genocidal terror attacks against themselves every few years.

[Jamiet99uk]

Plus, only one of these genocides is actually occurring.

Because Israel competently defends itself at an enormous cost, knowing that most of the world is ultimately okay with a status quo that means they face genocidal terror attacks against themselves every few years.

Who is paying you?

Israel is murdering TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE in front of your face and all you can say is 'but Hamas".

You are endorsing mass murder.

Fuck you.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I can't imagine WebDip forum propaganda pays well lol

I'm even on your side Jamie, it's just weird and counterproductive to focus exclusively on the war crimes of one side of this conflict.

[Jamiet99uk]

I can't imagine WebDip forum propaganda pays well lol

I'm even on your side Jamie, it's just weird and counterproductive to focus exclusively on the war crimes of one side of this conflict.

Fuck you.

The war crimes of one side (Israel) are killing TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

Only ONE SIDE is engaged in that level of GENOCIDAL MASS MURDER.

If you can't see that, fuck off.

[Jamiet99uk]

If anyone doesn't like what I am saying FUCK OFF, I DO NOT CARE.

Genocide is not something to discuss politely.

Israeli commanders have said IN PUBLIC that their intention is to RAZE EVERY BUILDING IN GAZA TO THE GROUND.

Go and fuck yourselves if you do not think that should be stopped at once by every government on earth.

[Jamiet99uk]

A holocaust is being put into action, as we speak, by Israel.

[Jamiet99uk]

Israel is now deliberately targeting hospitals in Lebanon, just like it bombed EVERY HOSPITAL IN GAZA.

Fuck Nazi Israel.

[Jamiet99uk]

Israel has been called out by Human Rights Watch as an "apartheid state" which denies basic rights to Palestinians on the basis of their non-Jewish parentage.

Israel is a Nazi ethno-state.

Israel should be sanctioned, prevented from acting, and dismantled.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Ascribing every death to Israel is disengenuous at best.

Any two state solution will need to take into account Israel's legitimate security concerns and the genocidal intentions of their neighbours.

Disarming Israel and demanding its unconditional withdrawal is a non-starter even if you think it's the righteous thing to do.

I really don't get what you get out of these posts. You've decided the conflict is easy-peasy black-and-white and you abhor discussing it.

I'm glad you've finally admitted your preference is the "dismantling" of Israel (and presumably not "dismantling" Iran). I'm sure the Jews will do just fine without their state, and when they get pushed into the sea at least you'll at least be happy they got what they deserved.

People with your view are part of the problem. Israel should be coerced into ending its war crimes, but that's hard to do when the progressive West plainly states their preference for a reverse genocide on Israelis.

[CaptainFritz28]

If anyone doesn't like what I am saying FUCK OFF, I DO NOT CARE.

Genocide is not something to discuss politely.

Israeli commanders have said IN PUBLIC that their intention is to RAZE EVERY BUILDING IN GAZA TO THE GROUND.

Go and fuck yourselves if you do not think that should be stopped at once by every government on earth.

I find it interesting that you disregard the fact that the good Esquire Bert has repeatedly said that it should be stopped.

Have you fallen so far into the extreme that you can't even recognize when someone agrees with you but wishes to add nuance to your side?

[CaptainFritz28]

You're shooting at non existent targets here, Jamie. Everyone I've seen on these forums, including myself, agrees that Israel is committing war crimes, killing unnecessary innocents, and thus should be stopped from doing so. That's not the debate.

The question is one of whether every last bit of blame should only at all be ascribed to Israel, which is, by all appearances, the belief that you hold. You seem to imply that their circumstances, what their neighbors do to them, what situation they were thrust into in the first place, and all factors whatsoever that have ever contributed to this war are their own fault.

You claim that we should get rid of Israel. That's a genocidal solution. Dismantling that government would be inviting Israel's neighbors, many of whom openly admit that they want to kill all the Jews, to do just that, and taking away Israel's only defence from that occuring.

If Israel is committing a genocide, letting them be genocided is not the solution. As you said, two genocides don't make a right.

[Jamiet99uk]

If anyone doesn't like what I am saying FUCK OFF, I DO NOT CARE.

Genocide is not something to discuss politely.

Israeli commanders have said IN PUBLIC that their intention is to RAZE EVERY BUILDING IN GAZA TO THE GROUND.

Go and fuck yourselves if you do not think that should be stopped at once by every government on earth.

I find it interesting that you disregard the fact that the good Esquire Bert has repeatedly said that it should be stopped.

Have you fallen so far into the extreme that you can't even recognize when someone agrees with you but wishes to add nuance to your side?

Because he also said a lot of "but Iran" and "but Hamas" and I'm sick and tired of hearing about Iran and Hamas.

I am not a supporter of Iran (I'm an atheist, they're a dictatorial theocracy), and I agree that Hamas is a violent extremist organisation whose leaders should be in jail alongside every minister in Israel's government.

But neither the foolish aims of Iran's foreign policy, nor the existence of Hamas, gives Israel the justification to massacre civilians, which is what they are doing.

And why am I shouting and cursing? Because TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN MURDERED AND MORE ARE BEING MURDERED EVERY DAY, I AM FUCKING DISTRESSED ABOUT IT.

I'm upset. Reading the news is making me cry and shout and drink more heavily. This is seriously affecting my mental health.

[Jamiet99uk]

You're shooting at non existent targets here, Jamie. Everyone I've seen on these forums, including myself, agrees that Israel is committing war crimes, killing unnecessary innocents, and thus should be stopped from doing so. That's not the debate.

Ok but let's focus on this. It is the debate.

Let's assume we do all agree that Israel is committing war crimes on a massive scale, and should be stopped from doing so. It would give me some comfort to know that we are all in agreement on that.

That being the case:

Why do we believe that nobody in the international community IS doing anything whatsoever about it?

Why are Britain and America supplying weapons to Israel which they KNOW are being used to commit war crimes?

Why is Israel being given a free licence to kill and maim whoever it likes, with no repercussions?

Why are there elected representatives in Washington and London cheering and jumping for joy whenever Israel blows up a hospital?

Let's talk about that.

[Octavious]

I'm upset. Reading the news is making me cry and shout and drink more heavily. This is seriously affecting my mental health.

As an aside, in this light it may be worth considering withdrawing from the news for a while. Regardless of what I may or may not think about what you've said, I have no doubt that it comes from a good place. I also have no doubt that anything we say or do here, and in the wider world for that matter, will make very little difference. If closely following events is having such an impact then any slight good you may achieve will be offset by the significant personal cost to you and the ripples from that to the people around you.

The news industry is built on taking every tragedy in the world and delivering it to our living room. We are simply not evolved to handle it. We all need to take a breath from time to time or we will drown. Look after yourself, mate.