Racist rioting in the UK

[Jamiet99uk]

For several days, the UK has seen a spate of riots by far-right racists and white supremacists. These outbreaks of organised mob violence have been whipped up by fake claims online, which alleged that the perpetrator of a knife attack in Southport was a Muslim immigrant who recently arrived illegally in the UK by boat (in fact, he was born in Cardiff, to a Christian family). The racists have been attacking hotels where they suspect asylum seekers are being housed, setting fire to cars and dustbins, looting shops, and attacking police.

Given a lot of members of this forum are from outside the UK, I am interested in how these events are being reported and seen outside this country, and general viewpoints.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

The Overton window on immigration in Canada has shifted.

For most of my adult life expressing any concern about mass immigration was taboo, which silenced racists but also ignored many valid issues.

Recently, a mostly-healthy mainstream debate about the impacts of mass immigration has emerged, highlighting issues related to housing supply, the misuse of the temporary foreign worker program, and concerns about low levels of assimilation (e.g., poor uptake of official languages) and some community's adherence to values that conflict with liberal societal norms (e.g., caste discrimination). However, this dialogue has also empowered some nativist and racist groups.

It's unfortunate to see such disagreements take an ugly turn in the UK. Canada isn't some cosmopolitan utopia, but that type of racist mob violence is basically unthinkable here.

[Trigfea63]

In the USA, this kind of false-flag violence has been a fairly regular occurrence for the last 8 years, since you-know-who was elected. To be honest, I hadn't noticed anything reported about the recent UK riots until I read your post. But there is a story in today's NY Times. I think people's heads here are in the Olympics, summer vacation, and maybe the election. Americans are too parochial to care much what happens in another country -- unless it gives us an opportunity to get involved in a war.

[Octavious]

For several days, the UK has seen a spate of riots by far-right racists and white supremacists. These outbreaks of organised mob violence have been whipped up by fake claims online, which alleged that the perpetrator of a knife attack in Southport was a Muslim immigrant who recently arrived illegally in the UK by boat (in fact, he was born in Cardiff, to a Christian family). The racists have been attacking hotels where they suspect asylum seekers are being housed, setting fire to cars and dustbins, looting shops, and attacking police.

Given a lot of members of this forum are from outside the UK, I am interested in how these events are being reported and seen outside this country, and general viewpoints.

I'm not entirely sure that the fake claims made any difference. Axel Rudakubana was born in Cardiff to immigrant parents from Rwanda. If you revealed this truth to the rioters the reaction would be less "oh no, we were wrong" and more "I told you so". There anger is directed at the mass immigration of the last few decades, and Axel Rudakubana fits their narrative.

No doubt Mr Starmer is delighted. He's only been in the job a few weeks and already the country is feeling more European

[Jamiet99uk]

For several days, the UK has seen a spate of riots by far-right racists and white supremacists. These outbreaks of organised mob violence have been whipped up by fake claims online, which alleged that the perpetrator of a knife attack in Southport was a Muslim immigrant who recently arrived illegally in the UK by boat (in fact, he was born in Cardiff, to a Christian family). The racists have been attacking hotels where they suspect asylum seekers are being housed, setting fire to cars and dustbins, looting shops, and attacking police.

Given a lot of members of this forum are from outside the UK, I am interested in how these events are being reported and seen outside this country, and general viewpoints.

I'm not entirely sure that the fake claims made any difference. Axel Rudakubana was born in Cardiff to immigrant parents from Rwanda. If you revealed this truth to the rioters the reaction would be less "oh no, we were wrong" and more "I told you so". There anger is directed at the mass immigration of the last few decades, and Axel Rudakubana fits their narrative.

No doubt Mr Starmer is delighted. He's only been in the job a few weeks and already the country is feeling more European

I think the fake claim he was a recently arrived illegal Immigrant was a major part of fanning the flames and encouraging the riots to begin, actually.

But of course you'll be an apologist for some of this shit. Of course you will.

[Octavious]

I what sense am I being an apologist? This is the sort of news that you love, not me. You might finally encounter a genuine Nazi you can punch

[Jamiet99uk]

I what sense am I being an apologist? This is the sort of news that you love, not me. You might finally encounter a genuine Nazi you can punch

You're diminishing the role of people spreading deliberate lies online to fuel racism. Tommy Robinson, Nigel Farage, etc. Lying is an essential feature of their strategy.

But then you were always happy to give right wing liars a pass.

[Octavious]

I genuinely don't think Farage has ever deliberately lied. He will direct focus very much in areas that advance his narrative, and often ignore completely any counter arguments, but I've not heard him lie. Tommy Robinson I've never paid any attention to so can't comment one way or another. But in the case of the murderer, the truth of his background isn't fundamentally different to the lie you identified. He is a murderer who is in this country due to liberal immigration policy. I think more damaging was when the authorities identified him simply as "a 17-year-old male from Banks in Lancashire, who was born in Cardiff", as whilst all that was true it did appear to be misleading

[Jamiet99uk]

I genuinely don't think Farage has ever deliberately lied. He will direct focus very much in areas that advance his narrative, and often ignore completely any counter arguments, but I've not heard him lie.

He frequently repeats and shares lies created by others.

In this case, for example, he shared multiple posts and re-tweeted posts on Twitter (X) by alleged rapist and human trafficker, Andrew Tate, falsely claiming that the alleged murderer in this case arrived in the UK illegally "on a boat" within the last few months.

Do you not see it as a problem that a UK Member of Parliament, the leader of a political party, would promote lies invented by a high-profile racist misogynist directly associated with human trafficking?

You don't have a problem with that?

[Jamiet99uk]

To add to this, Farage and Robinson have also made and shared social media posts which claimed the attacker in this case is a Muslim.

This has directly led to violent attacks and vandalism at several Mosques in the UK, as part of the current violence.

My own following of posts on social media by people supporting the current violence makes it clear that most of them believe he was a Muslim, and that they believe that because people like Nigel Farage have told them he was a Muslim. I can quote posts where Nigel Farage referred to him as an "active Muslim", if you want me to.

The authorities have confirmed that according to their information, Mr. Rudukabana was not a member of the Muslim faith (and, as previously noted, was from a Christian background).

Muslims in the UK, and their places of worship, are now at greater risk of violent attack, as a direct result of Nigel Farage's words and actions.

It's sick that you would defend him.

[Octavious]

I neither saw Farage do that, nor do I see any evidence on Twitter that he did so.

[Jamiet99uk]

I neither saw Farage do that, nor do I see any evidence on Twitter that he did so.

He gave an interview to Tom Swarbrick on LBC yesterday in which he used the description "active Muslim" at least twice.

[Jamiet99uk]

Octavious, you have repeatedly described yourself as a "Liberal Democrat". Lib Dem leader Ed Davey has repeatedly condemned Nigel Farage, and said in an interview last month that he "does not share a single one of our values".

And yet here are you, a self-professed Liberal Democrat, actively defending the man.

Strange.

[Octavious]

Contrary to popular opinion being a member of the Lib Dems doesn't turn you into a liar. I will only claim to see what I've actually seen. Besides which Ed is mistaken as he and Farage share very similar values when it comes to voting reform. Funnily enough I disagree with both of them in that regard

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

After a bit of reading online it's pretty clear that Farage shared online mistruths that suited his preferred narrative without fact checking them. Charitably, that was very careless of him. I think it would also be easy to argue that it was malicious (e.g., would he have looked into the details more carefully if the suspect had been white?).

However, focusing on the inciting event or framing the protest as a result of misinformation spread by certain political bogeymen is almost always the wrong way to understand it. Many protests start in the wake of a murky event that the protesters themselves only have a cursory understanding of. This is also true for many protests that progressives believe were righteous/virtuous. Typically, the event itself is just a trigger for the release of long-held grievances.

[Jamiet99uk]

After a bit of reading online it's pretty clear that Farage shared online mistruths that suited his preferred narrative without fact checking them. Charitably, that was very careless of him. I think it would also be easy to argue that it was malicious (e.g., would he have looked into the details more carefully if the suspect had been white?).

However, focusing on the inciting event or framing the protest as a result of misinformation spread by certain political bogeymen is almost always the wrong way to understand it. Many protests start in the wake of a murky event that the protesters themselves only have a cursory understanding of. This is also true for many protests that progressives believe were righteous/virtuous. Typically, the event itself is just a trigger for the release of long-held grievances.

Those grievances are, in large part, the result of many years of deliberate misinformation sown by the right wing press, the Conservative Party, the BNP, the EDL, and the likes of Farage.

Working class white people are not poor because of immigration. They are poor because of 14 years of Tory rule which veered between misguided at best, and corrupt at worst. And for years, whenever unrest and discontent has bubbled up, successive Tory politicians, aided by the press and amplified by Farage, have shouted "LOOK! IMMIGRANTS! DARKIES! GYPPOS!"

[Jamiet99uk]

Racism in the UK has been encouraged and pandered to for years by a significant section of the political class and the media as a means to keep the lower classes under control, and to protect the wealth of the minority.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I'm not trying to side with violent rioters who are targeting folks based on race, but that narrative above is way too simplistic.

Immigration affects different segments of the economy differently, with the most pressure on the low-skilled and working class.

Rapid culture change from immigration can feel jarring, especially for those who are not temperamentally cosmopolitan. High volumes of immigration from certain areas weakens assimilation and can itself cause racial segregation.

Everyone has some preference over how much immigration they prefer, and I have a hard time saying that my line is enlightened while someone else's line is xenophobic.

Of course there are bigots, but it's an artless dodge to characterize everyone with concerns about the pace of immigration this way.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

And immigration is a generally a policy preference of the wealthy because it, first and foremost, lines the pockets of those who own property and run businesses that pay low wages. Clearly a segment of the upper class in the West has been active in burying legitimate concerns about immigration in order to keep the inflows coming.

[Jamiet99uk]

And immigration is a generally a policy preference of the wealthy because it, first and foremost, lines the pockets of those who own property and run businesses that pay low wages. Clearly a segment of the upper class in the West has been active in burying legitimate concerns about immigration in order to keep the inflows coming.

Those people have been in power in the UK for the past 14 years; that's one of the things I'm saying. The UK has been dominated by a wealthy, selfish elite, some of whom benefit from immigrant labour, whilst constantly encouraging a narrative which seeks to blame immigrants for all manner of economic and social problems.