Do drag queens diminish the importance of gender pronouns

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brainbomb
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Do drag queens diminish the importance of gender pronouns

#1 Post by brainbomb » Thu May 25, 2023 1:56 pm

Do drag queens harm or diminish the use of gender pronouns and make it more trivial.

when men identifying as men choose to dress in drag they are referred to as women. but when out of costume they identify as queer men. Does this function counter intiuitively for developing and fostering an understanding of how to apply gender pronouns consistently.

As we have seen with Bud Light and now backlash against Target there seems to be record numbers of states trying to enact laws attacking trans people, and trans healthcare. there are even bills trying to criminalize parents whose children want to change genders.

At the same time Red states are also trying to attack drag shows and drag queens, racing to enact laws to ban people under 18 from going to drag shows.

But do drag shows actually make pronouns more meaningless as opposed to more meaningful?

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Re: Do drag queens diminish the importance of gender pronouns

#2 Post by brainbomb » Thu May 25, 2023 2:02 pm

As an example I am now 8 seasons into the show Rupauls drag race. And on one season a competitor admitted they are actually transgender and lied about their pronouns to get on the show. there was a sense of allyship and courtesy afforded by Rupaul and this was around 2010 so they were very ahead of this issue. but from a competitor stance being a man who is transitioning to being a woman could in this case be grounds for a show to decline their participation even though the show is about men who dress in drag.
The situation was handled very well and the competitors never seemed bothered by the idea. Which if you compare that to sports, why is anyone overly worried about a sport or entertainment form becoming diluted by transgender individuals who arent actually at any real discernable advantage that can be medically proven.
My opinion is that a transgender person would not qualify as being a drag queen since the whole concept is that a man is “pretending” to be a woman in a drag show.
If a trans individual chooses to pretend to be a woman when they are transitioning to be a woman; it goes against the spirit of the competition.

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Re: Do drag queens diminish the importance of gender pronouns

#3 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 25, 2023 7:51 pm

brainbomb wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 1:56 pm
Do drag queens harm or diminish the use of gender pronouns and make it more trivial.

when men identifying as men choose to dress in drag they are referred to as women. but when out of costume they identify as queer men. Does this function counter intiuitively for developing and fostering an understanding of how to apply gender pronouns consistently.

As we have seen with Bud Light and now backlash against Target there seems to be record numbers of states trying to enact laws attacking trans people, and trans healthcare. there are even bills trying to criminalize parents whose children want to change genders.

At the same time Red states are also trying to attack drag shows and drag queens, racing to enact laws to ban people under 18 from going to drag shows.

But do drag shows actually make pronouns more meaningless as opposed to more meaningful?
No, I don't think this is a problem.

Drag queens are performers. They are essentially acting. They aren't attempting to persuade people they actually *are* female. The fact that female pronouns are used to refer to them, while they are performing, happens in the context of that performance, and should be understood in that context.

Just as actors don't keep being referred to by their character’s name after stepping off the stage, drag performers generally don't keep the names or pronouns they use while performing. Drag queens are artists and entertainers, so being in drag is not an integral part of their identity in the same way that gender is.
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Re: Do drag queens diminish the importance of gender pronouns

#4 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Thu May 25, 2023 9:20 pm

I think gender pronouns have already been diminished in value. If anyone can claim to be of either gender or none, and if they can change their minds, switching back and forth through time, then what does gender mean anymore? It means an identity now, whereas it used to mean a physical characteristic.

My point is that gender does not have importance anymore, except in sports. It has morphed, and its importance has already been diminished.

This is a dangerous topic, and I am sure I will be hated all around for this post. But I am used to this now. I remember a mafia game a few years back, where I did not join in the misguided group think (that was wrong), and was chased out. Thinking for yourself is no longer valued. It is dangerous. I suppose that is how people are now.
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Re: Do drag queens diminish the importance of gender pronouns

#5 Post by Doom427 » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:13 am

You're approaching this issue from a philosophical perspective instead of a historical/cultural one- which is fine and quite heterosexual of you. But she/her pronouns have been used among gay men for a very long time even outside of drag. (A similar, though less common, habit exists among lesbians)

This means that pronouns are positional- a gay men using she/her on another gay men can be doing many things- being bitchy, ,engaging in camp, or just trying to draw on a long history of gay subjectivity.And obviously if a straight man were to do the same, while he COULD be trying to do the same thing, it will be read much more likely as a hateful act. Pronouns have already been more complicated than He-Manish-Penis/She-Girlish-Vagina for a very long time for those who have any experience in my world.

Now, many people view "Gender Pronouns" as very important, apparently so much so it's the topic of this thread. I can only assume most diplomacy players are English teachers in their day job? I'll just say the same thing I always do- language exists to be used by humans not to constrain them. Any system you devise up will have people who will not be able to use it, and have to hack it and revise it in order to live.

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Re: Do drag queens diminish the importance of gender pronouns

#6 Post by orathaic » Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:14 pm

No. Drag allows performers play the role of characters which may have different pronouns to themselves.

There is a long history of drag within queer culture which is not appropriative or harmful to trans folks.

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